Innovative Turbo Solutions

[00RedGAGT]

Hey guys, I am looking into getting a turbo for my 00 GT with summer. I am looking into the Innovative Turbo Solutions stage 1 turbo kit for $3000. I was wondering if anybody has this kit on their car, or has heard anything about it. Anybody who has a turbo I would like to know what kind of power you are putting out and quarter mile times. What else would be needed for this turbo kit. Is there a cheaper route or is there a better turbo charger than this kit. This kit looks really sweet. So far my car is stock for performance, so this summer it will either be a turbo or a whole bunch of other mods, personally I want the turbo because they are sweet and they sound cool, also a lot of power. Thanks

[Street-racer]

how much hp does that add? I though we only have a supercharged made for us from rsm 5,000 60 hp gain.

[jakeGAGTpsi]

How much HP ???? How about -180HP!!!!

They are not the best... more than one has gone there, the lucky customer got their car back running when all was said and done (returned to stock).

Learn from those lessons - they have no clue what they are doing.

OUT

[Aaron]

Unless you're going the route of racing or show, don't dump $3,000 into your car just so your ride to school/work has more "punch". Save up the $3000, spend 500$ on good exhaust and good CAI, but for the purposes of every day driving, a turbo isn't going to be useful, and you'll probably regret dumping the money into it.

But if your heart is set on it, go for it.

[jayhawk]

Alot of wear and tear is generated by a turbo...plus what if the bypass valve sticks and boosts your pressure? IMO, if the engine isnt made for forced induction, dont go the route if its going to be a car driven alot. Either that, or make sure you beef up and balance everything internally, including lowering the compression ratio.

If you want boost every once in a while, consider nitrous.

[phantom505]

I kept seening ITS and turbos coming up in this forum so I'll post these links.

I hope you don't mind.

http://www.grandamgt.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25385

http://www.turbochargedpower.com/

[TA^Guy]

Just want to make a few comments here.

A Turbo is actually better than a supercharger for daily driving.

As a superchargers boost incresses as RPMs do, a turbo will usually boost only under a moderately heavy load or WOT. By using a adjustable wastegate you can change how much boost you want.

Say on the highway cruising at 2500rpm a supercharger is creating boost. Pressurizing the cylinders and creating wear and tear.

A turbo on the highway while cruisiong at 2500rpm typically won't be pressureizing the cylinders under you put your foot down. Not only does it have less wear and tear but typically incress fuel ecconomy.

And don't worry about a blow off valve sticking. You probally would run enough boost for it even to be a concern. Most stock turbo systems don't even have a blow off valve.

[phantom505]

TA, that's very correct.

I could never figure out why SC's were so popular. I think turbos got bad reputations for some reason in the racing community which seems to be driven by the fear of "heat" and "turbo lag". The heat issue can be a problem, but I still haven't got someone to explain to me what "turbo lag" is.

It builds boost so much faster than a SC can.

[jayhawk]

Originally posted by TA^Guy
Just want to make a few comments here.

A Turbo is actually better than a supercharger for daily driving.

As a superchargers boost incresses as RPMs do, a turbo will usually boost only under a moderately heavy load or WOT. By using a adjustable wastegate you can change how much boost you want.

Say on the highway cruising at 2500rpm a supercharger is creating boost. Pressurizing the cylinders and creating wear and tear.

A turbo on the highway while cruisiong at 2500rpm typically won't be pressureizing the cylinders under you put your foot down. Not only does it have less wear and tear but typically incress fuel ecconomy.

And don't worry about a blow off valve sticking. You probally would run enough boost for it even to be a concern. Most stock turbo systems don't even have a blow off valve.

Crap.

Alright, time for me to hit the books again! :lol:

[00RedGAGT]

I looked into superchargers but they are so expensive and don't produce as much power. Also a turbo charger is more efficient than a supercharger. I thought about nitrous but I want to have the power all the time, plus a turbo with a blow off valve be cool when cruising through town. My car is a summer car due to college so right now it is sitting in the garage, but it will be my daily driver for the summer. I only put on about 5,000 miles on per summer and will be hitting up the track a couple times this summer also. I have looked at all the performance parts for our cars, without a cam a turbo seems to produce the best power. I heard that with the ITS turbo on a 3.4, it is producing 280hp at 8psi. Is this true? Still in the searching phaze, so nothing is final yet, keep the feedback coming. Thanks guys.

[Wallflower]

Originally posted by TA^Guy
Just want to make a few comments here.

Say on the highway cruising at 2500rpm a supercharger is creating boost. Pressurizing the cylinders and creating wear and tear.




Not completely true. Taking the Eaton stlye found on the 3800s, T-Bird SC, the MBs, etc .... all have a vaccum actuated bypass valve that is open under low load driving. 2500 rpm would be a low load situation, the vavle will be open, with the engine seeing normal vaccum as if the blower is not even there. At a 60mph cruise, the bypass is open. I looked for the setting, but I think the standard Eaton only pressurizes above 3500 rpm.

http://www.magnusonproducts.com/images/4gbypass.jpg

The 'war' over a turbo vs. super will always be there. Ultimately it should be determined by what the person is looking for in performance.

[SikMindz]

Regardless, I wouldn't go with ITS. Do a search over on GAGT.com. There are more than enough horror stories about the company to lead you astray.

[Wallflower]

Originally posted by 00RedGAGT
... don't produce as much power. Also a turbo charger is more efficient than a supercharger. I heard that with the ITS turbo on a 3.4, it is producing 280hp at 8psi.

I would like to address your two main comments here.

1 .... Power production is all in a matter of how the engine is built and what you want it to do. A supercharged car can easily produce 5,000+ HP.

2 .... A turbo is only more efficient under full boost.

Comparison of popular boost methods.

Lysholm = L (Whipple, AutoRotor)
Centrifugal = C (Paxton, Vortech)
Turbo = T (Self explanatory)
Roots = R (Eaton)

Response
L : Awesome idle-to-redline rpm power. No lag.
C : Poor low-speed response, similar to "turbo lag."
T : Poor low-speed response. Turbo lag.
R : Good low to mid range power.

Driveability
L : Increased lugging ability in higher gears. Increased power throughout rpm range.
C : Must downshift to maintain boost level.
T : Must downshift to maintain boost level.
R : Increased lugging ability in higher gears.

Engine Torque Curve
L : Virtually flat curve; ideal characteristic
C : Often worse than uncharged engine at low speeds.
T : Often worse than uncharged engine at low speeds.
R : Wide range; fall-off can occur at high speeds.

Heat Buildup
L : Low; intercoolers are usually not needed.
C : Low; intercoolers are usually not needed.
T : High; may need intercooler .
R : High; limits boost available.

Noise
L : Very low noise levels.
C : Typically very noisy.
T : Very low noise levels.
R : Typically very noisy.

Efficiency
L : 70-80%
C : 60-78%
T : 60-80% Peak
R : 40-60%

3 .... The verdict on ITS is still out. There are two companies that manufacture kits under the name ITS. One California, one Ohio. The Ohio ITS produces the 3.4 GM kit. I have heard many negative comments in relation to ITS Ohio. With me working in the aftermarket world, I have the opportunity to ask people about what they hear about products and companies on the market. When several, very reliable people, who have no connection to each other, caution you about a company, something isn't right.

[phantom505]

Okay, I don't think that table tells the whole tale by any means. Whoever wrote that left out a few important items.

Turbos with a boost controller do not drop off once they hit full boost. Controllers aren't that expensive or hard to install. Electronic controllers are better, but aren't usually needed.

"Turbo lag" still blows my mind. How do you lag when you have full boost at 3200 RPM? I think the twin screws have a similar pattern. All you need to do minimize any lag at all is to get a torque converter that locks up closer to the power band. That is not hard to do.

Turbos are a heck of a lot more efficient than roots or centrifugals. I don't know much about twin screw SC's. Turbos draw about 2-3% power off the engine while most SC's draw about 8-10%. So whatever that efficiency percentage is I don't know, it doesn't seem right.

And if you want something on par with a twin screw, just go the twin turbo route. That will cover all RPM ranges. For the GT I don't think we have a large enough power band to justify it.

I guess that table might be appropriate if you are looking at a bare turbo with nothing but a wastegate, but add a controller and a few other items and turbos are the best option in my opinion.

[TA^Guy]

Wallflower some good points there. And honestly I didn't know some of those had wastegates built in.
Originally posted by phantom505
"Turbo lag" still blows my mind. How do you lag when you have full boost at 3200 RPM? I think the twin screws have a similar pattern. All you need to do minimize any lag at all is to get a torque converter that locks up closer to the power band. That is not hard to do.
Turbo lag is a term that discribes the ammount of time between say WOT and the actual power incress. Typically this is the time it takes the motor to generate enough exhaust flow to spin the turbo, compress the air, and send it to the motor. There are alot of varibles that will determine turbo lag. Turbo size and style, distance from cylinder head, intercoolr style, distance the compressed air must travel, etc.

Example, in my old Grand National at idle I could floor it from a stop light and my tires wouldn't spin until I was about half way though the intersection.

[Wallflower]

Comparison Chart (http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/content.asp?PageID=68)

Whipple FAQ - useful info (http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/faq.asp)

About Twin Screws (http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/the-twin-screw-supercharger.pdf)

Screw vs. Roots (http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/twinscrew-vs-roots-fromcatalog.pdf) - Would have been nice to see them make this comparison along with the Turbo and Centrifugal

Blunt and general comparison made between all types (http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/WHY-KENNEBELL-twinscrew.pdf)

SCs vs. Bolt-ons (http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/supercharging-vs-conventional.pdf)

[phantom505]

I guess I'll have to get in the car and see. Usually when you drag you start off so close to full boost I don't think it's going to be a major problem.