fuel ?

[garunner]

I've posted in prob. & sol. about injectors and ohming them. I have had this problem for 4-6 months now, I've had prof. look at this and it stumps them. Fuel pressure is 45-50, injector ohm were 2.4-2.5, but when i ohmed them this morning i got 1.4. My question is the injectors seem like they're dumping too much gas which could explane the milage loss. Would the high ohm be the cause or the low?and this tcc thing, what is it what does it do, and can it cause bad gar milage and a bucking at steady speeds??

[rice_roaster]

Does the car buck when driving? As far as injectors dumping too much fuel... I would be inclined, it would be a sensor before an injector. OHM readings will fluctuate a little depending on tempeture, humity etc. An Ohm is an extreamly small unit of measure.

A better method of checking to see if the car is indeed running rich is to pull a spark pug and "read" the plug. If you have a shop manual, it will tell you how. (remember to use anti seize compound when replacing the plugs). Typically soot, on the electrod of the plug(the white part on a new plug) means you are running rich.

A bad O2 sensor can be the cause of running rich, and would be more likely then an injector failaure.

I would look into ignition first. Easier and cheaper to fix. Have you checked your coil cover? Had the coils checked? Are you sure the plugs are in good shape?

-Raymond

[garunner]

Raymond,
All of the sensors have been replaced in this damn car from the tps,iac,both o2,air temp,temp,map,plugs,coils,housing,mod,ecm. i feel like i'm fighting a losing battle. My dad thinks it could be a bad shipment of gas at the station? I personally am thinking about just getting rid of it, i have been fighting with this for about 7 months, it's been to shops, dealers and i get the same thing. I love the car but this is nuts! Help??????

[rice_roaster]

Time to hire an exercist? Just kidding... I've been there with a car...

I didn't see the TCC question in your first post (read it too fast, opps)-- It could be the TCC but, they usually don't fail quite like what your sysmptoms are.

The TCC is Torque Converter Control. This locks the Torgue converter when the engine turns over about 3500rpm in High gear. This indeed would cuase it to loose milage if it where to quit working, and some bucking if it was intermittent. They usually do not fail like that however. What will typically happen is, it will lock and not come unlocked making the car act like a stick shift without a clutch pedal (it will stall when coming to a stop just as if you were driving a stickshift and didn't press the clutch when stopping).

I'm not sure you can unplug it on a grand-am but maybe someone else in the forum can tell you. I know on the older GM's you could unplugg it, if it failed. You could then drive the car, it would just turn a few more rpm's at highway speeds.

In anycase, if you can unplugg it, that would a cheap way to find out if that is your problem. Unplug it... see if you still have the problem... plug it in if that doesn't fix it.

One last thing, I read what you have replaced. Now, does the car act up when it's warm? or will it act up all the time? Have you checked the fuel regulator? To check the regulator, pull the vacume line off (with the fuel system presurized) and see if fuel comes out of the vacume connection. It could also be a cam timing sensor

--Ray

[garunner]

What exactly does this cam sensor do? I had the ecm replaced under warr. It runs better but still does it but not as bad. i replaced o-rings on the injectors before but they wern't fuel rings they were just reg. rings for like a faucet, would that make a difference? i tryed to see if they were leaking but couldn't.

[jayhawk]

Originally posted by garunner
What exactly does this cam sensor do?]

The cam sensor and crank sensor give a reference "pulse" to the ignition module and ecm, so they can work in sync with revolutions and cycles of the combustion.

i replaced o-rings on the injectors before but they wern't fuel rings they were just reg. rings for like a faucet, would that make a difference? i tryed to see if they were leaking but couldn't. [/B]

Um, you really want to use o-ring made for fuel, as just rubber ones will quickly be eaten away by the gas and vapors.

Jay

[jayhawk]

Heres how distribuless ignition works:

The ignition system use a waste spark distribution method. Each cylinder is paired with the cylinder oppiste it (i.e. 1-3, 2-4). The ends of each coil secondary is attached to a spark plug. These two plugs are on companion cylinders, cylinders that are at top dead center at the same time. The one that is one compression is said to be the "event" cylinder, and the one on the exhaust stroke, the "waste" cylinder. When the coil discharges, both plugs fire at the same time to complete the series circuit. Since the polarity of the primary and secondary windings are fixed, one plug always fires in a forward direction and the other in reverse. This is different than convetional ignition whick fires all plugs the same direction each time.
During cranking, when the engine speed is BELOW 400 rpms, the ignition module moniters the crank sensor sync signal. The sync signal is used to determine the correct pair of cylinders to be fired first. Once the sync signal has been processed by the ignition module, it sends a fuel control reference pulse to the ECM. During the cranking period, the ECM will also recive a cam pulse signal and will operate the injectors sequencially, based on TRUE CAMSHAFT POSTIONS ONLY.

Wow...cant belive I remember all of that! :wink4:

Jay

[garunner]

Ok, i think i understand. The ecm was replaced again under warr. and i redid the o-rings to the injectors today. On the way to the store the car ran fine, but after that forget it. it was missing/popping all the way home,but if i put it in N and reved the motor it reved ok with a little hesitation, i put it back in gear and it missed again. So this cam sensor could be the problem?any way of testing

[garunner]

I changed the o-rings on all the injectors and reohmed them. They all ohmed at 1.9 so i don't know what's going on. It had all those problems and then i took it out today and it ran fine. wth any other ideas??? I figure by the time we get this fixed we all should be the smartest ga owners on earth.

[garunner]

As an update, so far the car is running good, once in awhile it will buck a little but that'a the trans needing a change. Now when accelerator is punched it hesitates a little and will in due time walk up to speed. If done slowly it runs good. The gas milage is slowly going up. any ideas on what it could be??? We are soooo close.

[4kQuad]

............still think the trany is causing the slow up to speed problem. Have you tried putting it in LOW then when the RPM's get higher shift it to drive or 2nd. When my old car had brown fluid problems, I ended up having to shift by hand, before the automatic works just plan would not shift any more.

[garunner]

That part does the same thing regarless of leaving it in auto or man. shift so that i don't think is it.

[4kQuad]

Ok, well it might not be it. I've been about as much help as I can. So I'm going to sit back and watch for a while. Good Luck with it.

[garunner]

At least everyone is trying. I had the cover off yesterday and as i pulled the boot off to put them on the housing i found a old rubber peice around the #1 plug, took it off and the cover fits better and is running alot better. still has the normal problems so let keep the replies coming.

[garunner]

During the first start up in the morning the car will run ok then will pulse up and down for about a minute then go back to normal. Sometimes as your pulling away from park it will boggle a little the go. I have still not cleaned out the k&n air filter, but i havn't gone back to work yet so it'll have to wait. But this is still the main problem and i have to try and figure it out before may for the car show. Does any body have any more ideas?????

[garunner]

I redid the air filter and now it runs good, my gas milage is up to 240 miles from a tank of gas. Now it start ok but in the morning it will surge for about 30 seconds and go back to normal. I found a wet spot under the pressure regulator, so i'm assuming it's bad. Any ideas?

[4kQuad]

On my Quad there is a small rubber hose that comes off the regulator, if you have one pulls yours off when the car is off. If any gas comes out, it's bad. At least that is what Brad told me back when I joined, so I'd go with it.

I think a vacuum leak is causing the RPM problem when it starts. Maybe the leak at the regulator is letting air in??
a quick spray or two of carb cleaner around the regulator should show any leaks if that is wherre it is comming from.

Glad you got the filter fixed. Amazing what it can do hu.

[garunner]

I pulled the hose off of the regulator and got nothing, but i havn't done the shots of carb cleaner. I'll try that tomorrow and see what happens.

[4kQuad]

Well, I hope the RPM's jump on you when you spray the carb cleaner. That would help insure that is the problem, I'll be running around this weekend so I may have to weight till Sunday to see how things come out for you.

Good Luck.

[garunner]

It's weird...I started the car up this morning and it didn't surge on me but it did run odd when i started to drive away. No matter how far i pushed the gas the car putted down the road not going more than 15mph. Then it would run fine. I also took it in for emissions this morning and it passed, so there nothing going on with the computer. I don't know.

[4kQuad]

I'm not going to beat the brown trany fluid idea again, but if the motor is running fine???

[garunner]

I just went back to work, so i'll have to wait a little bit. What about the pressure regulator? Can it cause an on/off type problem? On the way homw for work today it ran great after it warmed up and then almost home i had to pull over( lost a vent visor) and it was idling funny but it would still go with a little bit of sputtering.

[4kQuad]

I don't know how to test it. But if your finding fluid of some kind under it, Maybe call around to see how much they are.

Trany: just like motor oil, as it gets used it gets warm so it thins out, letting it go through the trany better. Does the studdering lessen as the trany warms?? If yes I'm betting it's it. If not then I've been beating a dead horse so to speak.

[garunner]

Today while driving home my check engine light came on, code po171. System adaptive fuel too lean. Now does that mean it's not getting gas or is it getting to much and the computer compensates sending a too lean code?????

[garunner]

Ok, i took care of the tranny fluid and changed the oil. The car starts good but sometimes runs like its not getting gas. or it's like the tps sensor is not reading steady, like you hit the gas then the brake very quickly, or i'll hit the gas and i get nothing untill i take off the gas then press it again a few times then it goes.when it does go it sometimes seems like it's not getting enough gas through the injectors and the motor holds back. any ideas???

[4kQuad]

I was talking to a friend a while back about your car. He has more knowledge and experiance than I do.

He said it's the fuel regulator. I said some thing about it a month or so back in one of the threads. And as you see moisture under it?????

[garunner]

Thanks for all your help, i changed the pressure regulator and it's running different, now i just have to get the car to cycle so the computer changes the readings. We are leaving for the Carlisle, PA. trip tomorrow evening so i'll find out how it really runs.

[4kQuad]

Here's to a smooth running car and a good trip.
:agree:

[garunner]

Unfortunatly, it was a problem trip for this pos... everything was going ok until we got ready to leave. the check engine light come on and stayed on the whole trip, the dash lights kept turning on and off, i got like 16 mpg on the turn pike, my car got broken into just before the trip,the trans kept bucking, it vibrated bad over 70mph and i couldn't get it to 80mph. so the whole trip, every one was waiting on me to keep up and i would have to fill up twice for every one time with every one else. So i'm dumping this damn headache and getting a 00 dodge stratus. other than that the show was sweet, it's a shame next years show is cancelled.

[4kQuad]

Dam..........I've been checking every day hoping to see good news.
Well at least you got back home. Glad the show was good.
Sorry it never got fixed, there must be a small brake in a streach of wire some where or ?????

[garunner]

I don't know, i've taken it to 3 different auto places and no one can figure it out. the computer tell them all is good and the ecm has been replaced 3 times so far. So the only thing i can think of is to get rid of it, and a new grand am is too much, plus i'm getting a really good deal on a stratus. but thanks for all your help. if you come up with anything let me know, i'm still waiting for a loan approval.

[garunner]

4kquad, You won't beleive this....I got the damn pontiac running. I'm serious, i was at work where they hired a new tech. We got talking about our cars and i told him how my ge was running and the problems it was having. He said" check with the guys up front and see if it's ok and i'll put the scan tool on it and we'll see whats up?" i go ok, they made me up a work order, pep boys policy, and i pulled the car in and he hooked it up. he was reading the scanner for about 10 min. then took it out for a drive with the scanner still hooked. Comes back and calls me over to see this. Turns out the o2 before the converter was froze! He said that with the o2 stuck like that the car was just dumping gas in and the other o2 was trying to lean it out but it was too far. 1st o2 was reading 102-119 and the heated o2 was reading 937-985. That's a big difference. So i changed the o2 and it ran very different, then when i got home i replaced the plugs again and the coil housing and so far it's running like it should. I'll find more out tomorrow if it's dry, it's kinda hard to take off fast in the rain when all i do is spin tires, which right now is a really good thing. it's awsome!!!!! now i can keep the car and finish fixing it up.:burnout: :party2:

[4kQuad]

Cool......




Man it must be nice.
:agree: :agree: :agree:

ConGrad's

One problem....what will I run around in the back of my mind when I get bord now??

Thanks for the Update.

[garunner]

Sorry about that, but i still have a bunch of problems if it will make you feel better so you'll have something to think about. I know how it is as we get older. Thanks alot for all you're help, if i can get your screen name to go on my buddie list i'll im you .

[garunner]

Ok, most of the troubles are gone, but one.... Only when the car is cold, when you start it up and put in gear it "lobes" for a little then runs normal. So if any one has any ideas on this, please let me know so i can finish with fixing up the beast.