Auto v. Stick

[GrandAmKid16]

Ok......I'm been have many heated battles with my friends about the difference between the two. Is it true that a car with stick would beat a car with auto with the same spec's? I would guess they would be close to the same you just wouldn't have that jerk when shifting. Any help to resovle this question would be great.

[nice96gt]

Stick would win hands down! That is if the person knows how to shift properly...:lol:

[VanishingImage]

well the obvious things are: both cars have the same amount of hp and torgue,both are the same engine,basically exact same car other then tranny.....The reason that a stick would win(assuming the driver has mastered proper and correct shifting points) is because on auto's the computer constantly changes shift points depending on air flow and fuel....But yes the stick would prolly edge out by a little bit,it would be a close one.

[00RedGAGT]

In all actuality an auto would win. If you have a good automatic transmission with the computer tuned, it would stomp all over a stick anyday. The pros only race with auto's, it's more consistent and can be dial in more accurately. People just like sticks because they are fun. Now if you're looking at stock specs then yes a stick would win because they don't build up the stock auto's good enough. My dad has a 600 horsepower Mopar with an auto, it has a hammer shifter and the tranny is capable of handling well over 800 horsepower, there's no way you could keep this thing on the road with a stick. But with an auto you can get it dialed in perfectly to make the car go the fastest possible.

[antirice]

Originally posted by 00RedGAGT
In all actuality an auto would win. If you have a good automatic transmission with the computer tuned, it would stomp all over a stick anyday. The pros only race with auto's, it's more consistent and can be dial in more accurately. People just like sticks because they are fun. Now if you're looking at stock specs then yes a stick would win because they don't build up the stock auto's good enough. My dad has a 600 horsepower Mopar with an auto, it has a hammer shifter and the tranny is capable of handling well over 800 horsepower, there's no way you could keep this thing on the road with a stick. But with an auto you can get it dialed in perfectly to make the car go the fastest possible.

wow, got documentation to back that up?

[VanishingImage]

the pro's use auto?? Everytime I go to the track and watch all the classic muscle cars that do about 10 or 11 second 1/4 mile all use stick,you can just watch them shift when they go off the line,plus to be able to have a burn out like they do you have to have LineLock,which locks the breaks and lets you just sit and spin the tires,and most of the time,and its rare to see an auto have it,all the cars will have stick.....Now if you talk about top fuel dragsters and funny cars,yea,those are all automatics,they have computers that will shift,theres no way in hell they could shift quick enough.

But back on the topic.....I think cars with the SAME specs and mods,the stick would win.Just for reference.....I have two friends,both have 93 Accords,both have swapped their engines for the H22A(which is a Vtech in the Preludes) and both are autos,I had them race each other,they both tied(damn near close) reaction time would have made the race.....I think it all comes down to reaction time when it comes to stick or auto and the same car and spec,but the stick more then likely will edge out on top.

[95-GT]

The truth....

Autos if they are built. When I say built, I am referring to a stalled torque converter, LSD, shift kit, manual valve body...basiclly built for power and all, the whole works. A stock auto is built for comfort with slow, light shifting, andlow revving. As referring to pros running autos, it is true. Any true car builder puts a modified auto into their cars for better accuracy. Dont believe me? Talk with Mark at API Racing, or Lidio with his 900 HP all motor Mustang.

[wiccanferret]

Stock for stock, it depends alot on the car and the manufacterer...not to mention the size of the engine and how the car has been driven.

A V8 with an automatic that's been driven hard vs a V8 with a stick...I would say the one with the auto would probably win because the computer will have learned to advance the shift points to match your driving, the auto shifts faster, and it has less gears to go thru leaving your engine where the power is for longer.

A 4-cyl would be a different story because they get their power at higher RPMS which means that the automatic having longer gears only delays the max power.

In the magazine world, the stick will always win because they prep the track FOR THAT CAR and drop the clutch from insane revs. You can't do that in an automatic, but if you wanted it to last, you wouldn't treat your automatic or standard as the magazines do.

[03xGAxSE]

auto eliminates the biggest problem in racing... human error...

[coupe]

automatic hands down

[Matt95GT]

Short answer: it depends.

Long answer:
Dragsters, muscle cars aside... when comparing stock transmissions on a 4 or 6 cyl FWD vehicle, the manual will have the edge over an automatic for several reasons:
-manual has more gears
-usually better gear ratios (due to having more)
-less driveline loss
-sometimes weight advantage

But... mis-shifts and poor launches will make for slow results. (or worn clutch)

Real world example... ask some of the 99+ GT 3.4 auto guys about how I often have an even run with them at the track. ;) (I have 25 HP less stock)

[92CamaroRS]

Originally posted by Matt95GT
Short answer: it depends.

Long answer:
Dragsters, muscle cars aside... when comparing stock transmissions on a 4 or 6 cyl FWD vehicle, the manual will have the edge over an automatic for several reasons:
-manual has more gears
-usually better gear ratios (due to having more)
-less driveline loss
-sometimes weight advantage

But... mis-shifts and poor launches will make for slow results. (or worn clutch)

Real world example... ask some of the 99+ GT 3.4 auto guys about how I often have an even run with them at the track. ;) (I have 25 HP less stock)

your also a few Hundred pounds lighter.

and on another not i see automatics with line lock all the time. it has nothing to do with which drive train you have.



but yes when it comes down to it an auto is better due to the fact that it eliminates human error. you would be amazed at what a difference a few hundred more or less RPM when you launch your manual would do.

[voyager]

i agree with the automatic winning with full blown racing cars, built up transmissions etc.

but on the street, concerning cars that you could walk into a dealer's lot and buy, the stick can win.

automatic transmissions are heavier than manuals, and have set rev limitters and shift points, which are more likely preset for economy rather than maximum acceleration. a manual transmission has the advantage
of being able to launch from higher rpm and to hold gears to higher rpms, so if pushed to their limit, a manually shifted car can accelerate faster than an automatic. manuals usually are more efficient at transferring power too (~.79 vs ~.86 maybe).

automatics however are consistent. they switch gears as fast or faster than a human possibly can, and they normally have fewer gears to shift through, so there's less lag time. fewer gears usually means less time at peak power though, and a lower FDR (not always). if you race the same two cars, one auto and one 5spd a few times, the manual will probably come out on top. if you race them 100 times though, the manual driver is more likely to make a mistake, grind a gear, shift early or late, while the automatic is still making pretty much the same time.

a manual car can beat an automatic ( OEM equipped ), but poorly driven, it can lose. it's difficult to poorly drive an automatic.

the factors are primarily gearing, higher rpm shifting, and weight.

like i said earlier though, when you get into 1000hp race cars and drag racing, or forced induction and NO2, a beefed up automatic is a clear winner because of it's consistency and faster shifting.

[voyager]

another thing - take two cars with 160,000 miles on them and original equipment. the manual transmission is probably nearly crumbled, while the automatic has another 40-50k miles of good driving left on it. =)

[Matt95GT]

Originally posted by voyager
another thing - take two cars with 160,000 miles on them and original equipment. the manual transmission is probably nearly crumbled, while the automatic has another 40-50k miles of good driving left on it. =)

That's funny, both my 5-speeds feel nice and crisp. (95 has 135K, 94 has 119K) The automatic in my 2.8 V6 Corsica died at 112K. I don't plan on owning an automatic ever again.

[jayhawk]

Originally posted by Matt95GT
That's funny, both my 5-speeds feel nice and crisp. (95 has 135K, 94 has 119K) The automatic in my 2.8 V6 Corsica died at 112K. I don't plan on owning an automatic ever again.

I took that path, and dont regret one bit. The fact that I can ROAST the tires through 2nd gear is a good selling point! :D

[Matt95GT]

Originally posted by jayhawk
I took that path, and dont regret one bit. The fact that I can ROAST the tires through 2nd gear is a good selling point! :D

Well that's the "fun factor" of manual. ;)

[03xGAxSE]

what about if you manualy shift the auto? in that case you can hold out for a few extra rpm

[voyager]

WOOHOO with OD i can shift between 3rd and 4th at will .... wait, it's not that exciting.. it's not as fun as a manual at all.. <_<


i went through 3 clutches in my 2.8 beretta in 300k miles; my auto 95 has ~159k and feels fine..? just saying.

[RocketFast321]

I can get a good chip out the maibu it i push it hard :)

[flyinfreak]

I thought i read somewhere that a manual loses less power going to the wheels unlike an auto??? The manual uses the power more efficiently going to the wheels. Although i found this out on a website and you can never trust anything on the internet. haha.

Ok here is a question you should as yourself. Why does subaru advertise there 0-60's with an asteriks??? Because it's a manual car. An Auto would be slower. Maybe because of my reason above. I dunno.. throwing it out there.

[95-GT]

A stick has less drivetrain loss as it is direct drive, and doesnt have to go thru a torque converter. As for the subaru, which car? Cause the 0-60* might state that its for the times on the AWD version then the RWD version.

Edit: I can probley chirp 2nd gear just as hard as the stick shifts here, if not, harder.

[flyinfreak]

the asteriks is for manual not AWDvs.RWD.. i'm pretty sure about that.

So that is the reason why manuals are faster right? More power to the ground eh?

[Themeneea]

when you see posted numbers for a cars auto vs manual its with a pro driver over several trys. the average driver will get numbers like a auto (if hes using a stick)

[TA^Guy]

Originally posted by nice96gt
Stick would win hands down! That is if the person knows how to shift properly...:lol:
Not that simple.

There are differences to discuss like gear ratio, final drive ratio, and types of tranmissions. Not to mention modern things like computer reprogramming, etc.
Originally posted by wiccanferret
A 4-cyl would be a different story because they get their power at higher RPMS which means that the automatic having longer gears only delays the max power.


This is a main reason why the import crowd literally has to relay on manual transmissions to keep up. This way off the line they can literally rev to near their peak hp. The could do it with a automatic but would need a extremely tall stall converter which would make driving it on the street hell or trans-brake would also work for racing.

I have the same problem with my bike, I need to launch it between 7000-8000rpms in order to get a decent launch. Only problem is I hate the wear and abuse on the clutch. So I launched at about 3000rpms and only turned a 12.6, about 1.5 seconds slower than it should run.
Originally posted by 03xGAxSE
auto eliminates the biggest problem in racing... human error...
Couldn't have said it better.
Originally posted by antirice
wow, got documentation to back that up?
Goto a track and see how many Bracket Racers or any other rae car for that matter is using a manual transmission.
And Lencos don't count.

[MagusXIII]

John, do not forget about the Art Carr C4...

My take:
A SKILLED driver can, assuming stock manual, vs stock automatic, beat a automatic car. Remember, this is stock as it rolled off the factory. My ZX2 is a perfect example. The BEST time I have ever seen for a stock ZX2 is a 15.8 with no exhaust/intake/ECU mods whatsoever. The BEST automatic ZX2 time I have ever seen is somewhere in the high 16s.

John, you also talk about gear ratios what whatnot. That is a great statement. Once again, my ZX2 is my example. The manual ZX2 has a 4.10 final drive ratio and a first gear around the 3.2 to 3.3 mark. The automatic has a 3.76 (not more nor not less than 3.73) final drive ratio and its first gear is around the 2.7 to 2.8 range. So...it is a given which car is going to win acceleration contests.

So which do I prefer? Manual. I like the simplicity of the manual and there are less things to go wrong with it. I prefer being able to shift when I want and I prefer the mileage benefits. Also, I can do the ubiquitous 2nd gear start on slippery surfaces like deep snow. I can also skip gears when conditions permit for better economy. If I was drag racing for big money, you're darn right I would want an automatic! While anybody that has seen me drive knows how fast I can shift gears, I want whatever it takes to cross the finish line first if I aam driving for big money in heavily modified vehicles.

On the road race courses or if I ever started racing SCCA Solo II, I would want manual. The stock autos do not shift fast enough and as any SCCA or road racer will mention, being ion the right gear at the right time in the right curve is critical.

To conclude, there is one instance where I feel the auto will have an edge on your plain old street car. Turbocharging. With your automatic, you can always keep your foot planted on the throttle abnd the boost will remain during the shift. With the manual, you have to lift off to shift (I do not believe in powershifting as it is too destructive) and as the RPMs fall, so does the boost. So with a nicely built turbo engine and a modifed transmission, I feel the auto will be more advantageous in turbocharged applications.

[ZACH]

When I started reading this post I started thinking of all the things I would say, but after reading everything that was said by everyone else I have nothing left to say.

[TA^Guy]

Originally posted by MagusXIII
John, do not forget about the Art Carr C4...
How could I, my buddy swapped out his Tremic TKO for a ArtCarr C4 in his 377cid powered 9 second Mustang.

John, you also talk about gear ratios what whatnot. That is a great statement. Once again, my ZX2 is my example. The manual ZX2 has a 4.10 final drive ratio and a first gear around the 3.2 to 3.3 mark. The automatic has a 3.76 (not more nor not less than 3.73) final drive ratio and its first gear is around the 2.7 to 2.8 range. So...it is a given which car is going to win acceleration contests.

Although not all cars are like that it is something to consider.
And if it's drag racing there is another thing to consider that is the effect of gear ratios is rpms at the finish line. Basically you want to cross the finish line near your peak power rating. Depending on the variables some factory automatics may actually be more sutable.

To conclude, there is one instance where I feel the auto will have an edge on your plain old street car. Turbocharging. With your automatic, you can always keep your foot planted on the throttle abnd the boost will remain during the shift.
You couldn't imagine how many times I heard 'Too bad it's not a manual tranny'. when people check out my Grand National. Sometimes I would explain to them that Buick knew better and why, other times I would shake my head and know that they were just another lost soul.

[3 DeeJay]

A good example from the meet.. the auto eco ran between 17-17.2 while I ran w/ a 5spd between a 16.6-16.9

[MagusXIII]

3DJ, just curious, but what were the final drives?

[RamAirGAGT]

As has been stated before in one way or another, people like manuals because they will find out their peak RPM and keep it in that area easier.
Most people with muscle cars or looking to buy muscle cars usually prefer an auto-much less trouble!

[03xGAxSE]

im still curious about a manualy shifted auto... start in 1st shift to second alittle before the red line and so on... is this a bad thing? i would assume you could hold out for a few more rpms over stock shift points just watch for the rev limiter... im also told line pressure is alittle higher in 1st/2nd

[Themeneea]

[/quote]im still curious about a manualy shifted auto... start in 1st shift to second alittle before the red line and so on... is this a bad thing? i would assume you could hold out for a few more rpms over stock shift points just watch for the rev limiter... im also told line pressure is alittle higher in 1st/2nd[/quote]

if your going to manually shift dont go to the redline, shift at the end of the peak power. power drops off alot at redline. i know with manually shifting my car i can chirp second most of the time, and if i dont it never chirps.