3100 to 3400 top end swap - need info

[CDR Speed]

Sorry about the thread title, i screwed up there, it was supposed to be a rely to another members post. Anyways, I was just wondering if you guys know if the powertrains in the grand am are compatable with the beretta. If so, then I can be of great assistance to you, as I have been an active posting member of a beretta message board for quite some time, and bring 13+ years of genreal repair experience to the table with alot of early to mid 90's GM experience, as well as about 8 years or porting and polishing, and high performance vehicle construction and modification. I do have a pair of websites, and a tons of pictures of my work, but I am holding off linking you guys to it until your moderator says it is ok to do so. Once he does, I will update this thread with those links. Thanks for your questions, comments, and inquiries, Dave@CDR speed
:microwave

[brianmf]

I have a 97 GASE and I'm thinking about doing a 3100 to late model 3400 top end swap. I would like some input as to what parts work best, issues to look out for, etc. Success stories and horror stories are welcome! Trying to learn all I can before attempting this.

TIA

[CDR Speed]

Well, if this is anything like a beretta swap from 3100 SFI to 3400 SFI swap, then it will be fairly simple and straight forward. basically all you do is strip everything from the block up, and replace it with the 3400 SFI counterpart. The only thing that would make this swap less than ideal would be the lack of Mass Air Flow engine management. The addition of all these shiny new parts will increase air flow. Well, in a MAF computered car, this is great because the computer see's that air flow has increased, and adjusts the fuel and timing accordingly. In a speed density car (with the MAP sensor and all that BS, and no Mass Air Flow meter), the computer monitors manifold vacuum and engine speed only. Neither of these monitered areas would detect the changes made, thus forcing you to get a reburnt chip to make all this stuff worth what you paid in hp, tq, and ET numbers, otherwise it will be totally oblivious to your upgrades.

[brianmf]

I've heard of issues coming up doing one of these swaps. Stuff like EGR valve mounts, coolant lines, etc. Anyone have any info for stuff like this? I tried to email bszopi on the gm discussions forums as he is doing a similar project; but, he hasn't answered.

Thanks for the help so far!

[Jason Lesbirel]

Those, I believe, would be issues on pre-95 3100s - I'm fairly sure that 3100s after 95 are very similar to the 3400 so far as fitment of the coolant lines and the digital EGR valve.

[John95GA]

Originally posted by brianmf
I've heard of issues coming up doing one of these swaps. Stuff like EGR valve mounts, coolant lines, etc. Anyone have any info for stuff like this? I tried to email bszopi on the gm discussions forums as he is doing a similar project; but, he hasn't answered.

Thanks for the help so far!

Ditto that here. :(

[John95GA]

Originally posted by CDR Speed
Well, if this is anything like a beretta swap from 3100 SFI to 3400 SFI swap, then it will be fairly simple and straight forward. basically all you do is strip everything from the block up, and replace it with the 3400 SFI counterpart. The only thing that would make this swap less than ideal would be the lack of Mass Air Flow engine management. The addition of all these shiny new parts will increase air flow. Well, in a MAF computered car, this is great because the computer see's that air flow has increased, and adjusts the fuel and timing accordingly. In a speed density car (with the MAP sensor and all that BS, and no Mass Air Flow meter), the computer monitors manifold vacuum and engine speed only. Neither of these monitered areas would detect the changes made, thus forcing you to get a reburnt chip to make all this stuff worth what you paid in hp, tq, and ET numbers, otherwise it will be totally oblivious to your upgrades.

That would really suck for me. :( I'm planniing on doing this w/ some 2000 Malibu 3100 heads/intakes. I've already gotten a custom reprogram done from Superchips a couple years ago, but I'd hate to have to go back there again, unless they'll redo it for free. Couldn't I just put and adjustable FPR on there and up the fuel pressure?

[Marks95GAGT]

Well I just learned today that I have to work on the top end. I am getting coolent in my oil....very uncool if you ask me. Sooooo since I have to rip everything off the top of the engine anyway, I am going to attempt to upgrade to the 3400 intake and TB. I am taking pics for documentation purposes, so that we can see how all this is done...:D or how not to do it...:doh: Any way, I have a guy holding an intake and TB for me. I will go check it out on Monday, providing I can get the day off. If is a pretty good match for the 3100 stuff just bigger ports, I will buy it, get it cleaned and hopefully install intall it by Thursday - Friday. If any one else here has more information on doing all this please by all means contact me or ad to this thread....

Mark:help2:

[CDR Speed]

Ok the link for the pictures and some info is http://fiveliterfixer.tripod.com/index.htm and the link for my home page, some more pics, the message board, and a more detailed service statement is www.cdrperformance.com. Thanks for any and all feedback, and enjoy.

[99GrandAMSE]

... sorry for the confusion of this post but I merged two posts together to keep all of it together :)

[CDR Speed]

Hey john95GA, it depends on wether you have speed density or Mass Air Flow metering. if you have speed density, then no, a fuel pressure increase will not help. What needs to happen is injector pulsewidth and timing need to be adjusted to accomodate the larger air flow capabilities. Turning up the fuel pressure might take care of it, but i wouldnt want to gamble with an engine that has such fragile pistons that would respond so adversely to running lean. Now, as to the question about EGR, unless you guys have different intake manifolds than the beretta guys do, then the EGR should bolt right on, with some minor bolt hole elongation and gasket modification. But bear in mind, the gross majority of the swaps i have done were on either 96 Z26 or base 3100 SFI cars, usually 96, and all MAF cars. If any of you guys live in the milwaukee/chicago area, then gimme a call, i might be able to drive to wherever you are and assist you in this endeavor. The best gains to be had without porting are to find the heads that came with the intake you are using. What you should do (ideally, not mandatory) is have a shop offset grind the cylinder head intake port entry way ported to match the lower intake port exit, so the path of air flow is totally undisturbed, if not perfectly smooth. Same goes for the exhaust manifold, obviously. Anyway, if you guys need a set of heads matched to an intake, gimme a holler, i'll quote you WAY lower than i would for a full port and polish and all that jazz. Oh yeah, thanks for mixin up the thread sean, lol, i was TOTALLY lost until i read the last post, yours. Thanks for your ears, and please feel free to keep posting yours questions. I just ported and polished myself out of work, DOHT !!!!.

[brianmf]

CDR Speed...

Just so I'm clear, when you are talking about swaping the top end from a 3100 to a 3400; are you talking about a same year swap? I.e. '97 3100 to '97 3400 top end swap? Or are you talking about doing a '97ish 3100 to 2000+ 3400?

Also, since I am not as experienced as some around cars (I do know how to use a torque wrench, and even how to spell it; but I wouldn't know where to start when calculating valve spring pressures and pushrod lenghts,) how intricate is the work entailed in this swap? At first I was thinking just upper and lower manifolds; possibly a new TB. After reading some of your posts, I am thinking about replacing the heads as well. I am wondering how much more time, effort and $$ this will be. Will it be worth it? If I did decide to do heads, what other issues will I be running into? Different intake valves for one, I'm guessing. Also, what would be the ideal set of heads to get? A set from my model year ('97)? Or a newer model year (2000+)?

I would like to do something to my engine in the way of performance mods. I just wish I knew more about the various levels of complexity that come with replacing the different items.

Thanks for all the feedback so far!!

[MJE95GAGT]

I think the 3400 first came out in 99, but anyways if you are interested in those parts see my thread in this section "3400 parts?" and I will keep you updated

[John95GA]

My 3100 has speed density (no MAF). So you think my existing EGR could must mount on the 2000 manifold sideways ('cuz that's how it appears to mount on the newer ones, as opposed to on top like mine)? Since I have no MAF, I gues another trip to Superchips is inevitable, huh? I take it I'll probably want an A/F guage installed after doing this also. ;) This might wind up costing more than I was hoping for.

[CDR Speed]

Howdy john, glad to see you've been following me. Anyways, i havent done the 3400 SFI swap onto a non-MAF car yet. i have done this 3 times onto 96 berettas and onto a 96 monte carlo once. In all cases, the parts came from 99-^^ aztecs, chevy ventures, the olds mini-vans, and the pontiac trans sport. All of the cars i swapped the parts went into were MAF wich saved much fabrication and tuning work. The time difference between just doing an upper and lower intake and going down further to do the heads is quite a bit. You then have to remove everything above the block. It's a tough job, and not one for the first timer or do-it-yourselfer. If you live near the chicago/milwaukee area, then i might be able to drive to wherever you are and do it for you or help you out. As for the aftermarket parts, you can't get a whole lot for these, but i know there are headers, rockers, and an aftermarket throttle body from one of the sponsors here on the board, i believe RSM or RMS, sorry if i butchered that.

[John95GA]

I forgot about this thread (oops)... Hmmm, so assuming I decide to have this top-end swap done (btw, see my "plan" thread for more details: http://www.gaownersclub.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5981 ), will I be able to drive the car very far w/out risking a blown piston, since the computer will not have been re-reprogrammed (LOL) yet? That is what concerns me. I take it I'll have to get to dyno tuner pretty quickly, huh? That can get expensive, I imagine. I've never seen it done, but how many runs does it typically take to get a good tune? (Did I say that right?).