Poll: Our government and military

[Pte Socks]

Ok, I know this may seem like a bit of a rant, but I want your opinons on this as well. If anyone has been reading the news lately, they would know the government is discussing is promise to hire 5000 more members in the CF. Well just recently, I read an article in the Edmonton Journal and the price tag for such a force would cost over 500$ million dollars a year. Now would you pay the money to see our CF rise in that number? Personally, im just hating this entire process of the recruiting phase. If your also a news junkie, you would know ther have been a huge number of complaints from possible recuits that their forms arnt being processed in due time or are getting screwed up and they are too afraid to say anything. Well I now fall into that group. Ive been screwed over by the recruiting process so now im looking at a longer time stuck here making 7 bucks an hour at blockbuster. yea, im a little bitter, Ill admit that. but what im really wondering about is how everyone else views this situation. For me, I had the wonderful experience of having my entire file closed here, because the morons at HQ in Borden, have never bothered to fill the recruiting centre here in edmonton on my status. So now I have to go through the entire recruiting process again and that makes my tests fall into jeopardy because they all have a limited life-span. So once again, I ask, what is yoru view on the CF or your view on the estimated 500$ million to support and hire 5000 new troops.

[Gimli]

You should contact the Canadian Forces Umbudsman. I'm sure they'd be able to help you out and it might actually help get these problems resolved (they've been much better the last couple of years than they were before).

[BBT]

Well, since it is the history of Liberal governments since the 1960's to weaken the Armed Forces, I will believe 5000 new troops when I see them. As for the cost, well, there goes any new equipment or proper maintenance on equipment already in place.

Of course, they will recoup the costs by charging higher and higher rents from them for substandard quarters.

Am I cynical? You bet!

[Pte Socks]

hmm good advice there gimli, and I have to agree with you BBT. Id hate to see what happens to the already somewhat lackluster equiptment if they get another 5000 troops. the thing that pisses me off is consistantly, our forces are some of the best in the world, but our equiptment is lagging behind and its hurting us. I hate how many americans think they have the best army when I know ours is better, if only we had even a fraction of their budget for arms and equiptment. Common, the new F-22 raptor is just a friggin cool jet, and yet we have only a basic fighter/bomber of the CF-18's, though in terms of airforce at least for attack aircraft, our forces arnt too bad.

[BBT]

The CF-18s aren't really 'basic', but they are getting onin life. They need updating (which they are slowly getting). Even the Americans will be using their F-18s for some time to come, as they are replacing the F-14 Tomcat with updated Hornets, and even better, the Super Hornet. We just need to brings ours up closer to the American moddel F-18, if that's possible. We can't make 'em into Super Hornets, though, as those are pretty much a major change (bigger, faster, etc.). We can & should upgrade all the avioincs, radars and weapons. Wwe should also perhaps buy another 20 or so. But that won't happen. One of the reasons the Hornet was bought was because it has 2 engines, for long range patrols, especially in the North. Well, doesn't make much sense anymore, as we no longer have air strips or bases/stations in the North, nor do we have any in air refuelling capapbilities (except for Hecurles - and we know how strapped they are for usage, as they get old, too).

What gets me, is that the US is going to be using B52 bombers until 2025 at least. The models they are going to be using, the B52-G I believe, entered service in 1963. So they are as old or older as anything we fly in Canada. So how can they keep 'em going while our Sea Kinks fall out of the sky? Oh, yeah - money. They spend where we don;t as the miliatary is an important part of their foreign policy, while ours is a nuisance and is used as social policy.

Don't get me started.........too late.........

[Pte Socks]

As for the sea kings, didnt the government promise the replacement of those back like 5 years ago? Sorry to get your started, I had no idea you had such interest in the forces. Im curious to what everyone think about the CF. Personally, I just want to get in and start my life.

[BBT]

Sea Kings were supposed to be replaced by the EH-101 bought by the Brian Mulroney government back in, oh I dunno, 1991? They were buying a fleet of 50, some for for SAR work and others for the new (at the time) Halifax class patrol frigates. In fact, the patrol frigates were built with the expectation that the EH-101 would indeed be purchased, such was the strength of the bid back then.

Chretien came to power, decreed the EH-101 was a 'Cadillac' and we didn't need it, and cancelled the order for a penalty cost of something like $500 million. That was on top of some millions already spent in development costs. Ironically, the Cormorant was later purchased for SAR work, and it is essentially a stripped-down, non-combatant version of the EH-101.

I for one do not think we will ever rebuild our military to any sort of capability it once had. Not until there is some sort of national or international military crisis, anyway. I don't think it needs to be at WWII levels, but should be larger, and more flexible, with more combat-ready & properly equipped troops than it now has. Lay-off some generals, recruit some smart young people (lots of them out there I'm sure), buy the equipment needed, no matter the source (and never mind the oh so Canadian regional economic spin-off benefits). Just find what is needed, negotiate the best price and BUY it! Or better, for some things, BUILD our own - like ships. And keep building them so we maintain the expertise.

[Blackrider]

For the love of god dont get me started on the Seathing, You feel like your going to drop out of the sky when in them. you should see the amount of hydrolic fluid left on the deck after a flying op.

[Pte Socks]

Hehe oh thx Blackrider, all the more to make me feel better about getting into the forces and in those things, im afraid of heights as it is.

[Gimli]

Originally posted by Neo-Blue99GASE
Hehe oh thx Blackrider, all the more to make me feel better about getting into the forces and in those things, im afraid of heights as it is.

I don't think it'll be that bad, it's not like they fly anyway, it's more of a semi-controlled drop :)

BTW If you want me to find you somone's number to call at CFRG or anywhere else in Ottawa just let me know ;)

[Pte Socks]

thx man, I might just take you up on that. Im sending my application through for he second time and they better not scrwe this one up again. Im sick of just sitting on my ass working at blockbuster at 20 years of age, im not getting any younger...

[Blackrider]

Originally posted by Gimli
I don't think it'll be that bad, it's not like they fly anyway, it's more of a semi-controlled drop :)

BTW If you want me to find you somone's number to call at CFRG or anywhere else in Ottawa just let me know ;)
And i have stook under them when they are "Trying" to hover. :(

I once asked a pilot if it was normal for them to leak so much Hydrolic fluid, He told me Yes, When it Stops leaking. RUN!

[Pte Socks]

LOL, omg, im scared shitless of those things now. WEll I went to the recruitment office once again today ( by god, they must be getting to know me because ive been there so many damn times.) Anyways, it looks like the next set of job offers is in early April. I hope I get in on that one or else I might be considering something else, ive already waited a year for this. the bad news is if they didnt screw up, I probably would have been off as it is because they just finished this session of calls last week.. GRRRRR...

[Gimli]

Are you getting on with the officer's program (and the big bonuses and all)? Last I heard they were really having a hard time getting eople in that way...

[Pte Socks]

nope just an NCM.

[Cpl_kellehar]

not to cause an argument but from what i've read you guys say that most of this is to blamed on the goverment? one of the number one factors i've noticed since i joined in 97 is the public and when the goverment tries to help or do somthing for military the canadian public screams that the funds are needed else where. I have been to quebec for the ice storms i have been to winnipeg for the floods and fought the fires in b'c, and did my time at the g-8. before during and after i have been spit on called names and had objects thrown at me by the public i was there to help! i no longer serve to protect the people of canada as they are nothing but spoiled children in my eyes i serve for my family.i place blame with the canadain people not the goverment. with this said you'll find my opion shared by many who wear green

[BBT]

I am truly sorry you have had those experiences with people. They should be ashamed of themselves. The Canadian military personnel are some of the best people there are in Canada.

That being said, I do not believe the majority of Canadian people believe or behave the way you mention.

Since the mid-60s I have watched as successive governments have slowly, but almost systematically ruin the armed forces. They have done this by down-sizing, and refusing to fund it as they properly should. No equipment, no training, no money to spend and when they decide to use the forces as an arm of government policy or to make a statement in the world, the forces must come up with the money from existing funds, further de-grading its ability.

Again, please do not believe that most Canadians feel about you and other members the way you have seen in the past,

[Gimli]

Well, I think it's mostly the Canadian media that's constantly complaining that money used for the military could be better used elsewhere so that's what the vocal population thinks and that's what every government obliges to do.

It always pisses me off that whenever something goes wrong with some of our gear it makes the headlines and the media pisses and moans about how old and bad our equipment is and that we should do something about it but then when we actually do something about it they piss and moan that we're spending too much money. These things aren't free...

The Sea King thing is a perfect example. Back in the early '90s every fricking media outlet was bitching at Mulroney for the Cormoraqnt contract to replace the Sea Kings. Chrétien campaigned on ditching the contract and won the election. Now that we have to buy something else to replace the Sea Kings every fricking media outlet bitches that it would've been much cheaper to just let the conservatives buy the Cormorants 10 years ago because of the contractual penalties we had to pay then. People have got to make up their mind, nobody's gonna give us free helicopters...

If the media knew what the JTF2 guys have and how much it cost we'd have a civil war on our hands... Kinda sad that the only unit that's well-equiped is the one that nobody knows about...

[Pte Socks]

Ha! I love the comment about the JTF2 there Gimli. ITs so true, in all media ( ie movies ) all you hear about is the US special forces, hardly anyone knows whe have the JTF2. Hell few people even know who CSIS is. Im definatly of the opinion that we should give more money to our forces. Im tired of the lack of equiptment I hear about, im tired of the same old excuses. Im personally willing to give up more money to see it put to good use. But thats just me.

[Blackrider]

Speaking of JTF2 Guess what I did tonight :D . To bad I can Say anything, But I can tell you your right when it comes to their equipment I know first hand :)

[BBT]

Well, all I can say is that there is no sense in haviing a unit like JTF2 (or even any military for that matter) if you're just gonna equip them with pea shooters and sling shots.

Some of our equipment is top notch. For instane, the sniper rifles we use are superior to the ones the Americans use. Don't forget, world record for a kill while under fire is held by a Canadian sniper, 2,430 metres.

[Pte Socks]

Very true BBT, some equiptment is top notch, but much other equiptment still laggs far behind. I guess one could use the same old story of us being sent to afgan.. without proper desert camo. Not saying you need anything special, but common, green stick outs like a sore thumb in the orange desert in daylight. For nightime, Id say our greens are half decent but during the day... just ouch.

[Blackrider]

Its not that the Equipment is shit so much as it is old. They just dont have the monye to replace it every 2 years like the americans do.

[Gimli]

Originally posted by BBT
Well, all I can say is that there is no sense in haviing a unit like JTF2 (or even any military for that matter) if you're just gonna equip them with pea shooters and sling shots.

Trust me, there's no pea shooter in JTF2's arsenal. ALL of their stuff is top notch, and then some.

And Neo your comment about our desert camo is just another example of how the media shapes the population's mind.

Did you know that the big drama about us not having desert camo lasted all of about two weeks? Did you know why we had a problem? It's because we had just started equiping our troops with the new camo pattern we spent 10 years developping and that, obviously, forest colours were the priority. When 9/11 came around and we suddenly had to send troops in the desert it took a few weeks to go from just a pattern to a fully-fieldable desert-coloured kit. Obviously what the media interpreted is that our troops were so poor we couldn't afford desert camo, which was blantantly false. They also didn't retract themselves when we did get the gear, two weeks later.

BTW that new camo design is so effective that the US Marines, Army, Special Ops and Air Force have all bought the rights to use the pattern from us. Try to find a Canadian media outlet that'll speak of that...

[BBT]

Now about our camo pattern, I had heard that it is the envy of other forces, and has been bought by them. It did make the media, briefly. At the time of deployment to Afghanistan, it was just being dished out to the troops, and there was nowhere near enough of the green to go around, never mind desert pattern.

As to having desert camouflage, well, shortly after the troops went to Afghanistan, and were still in their greens, I was at Bouclair Fabrics with my wife. What did I spot? Yards and yards of the American pattern desert camouflage. Although full uniforms of the proper pattern would be the best solution, an interim step would have been to buy as much of the American pattern cloth as could be bought, and make quickie ponchos out of it. A cheap fix too. Not great for all times, but certainly good to throw over yourself when out in the field, and hunkered down, helping to make yourself less visible.

[Pte Socks]

Well I guess that just shows how much I do know about our military :lol:. I know when I first heard that I was pissed, I though no way in hell should they be in that kind of shape. More and more though, I want to get in just to see what we have and see what is true and false. Ive heard some great things about our vehicles and I cant wait to let me tinker around with them and fix them up. its a car enthusiasts dream to work on the stuff some of our boys get to play with. I cant wait.

[BBT]

Somehow I think somebody beat ya to modding a G-wagen.

[Cpl_kellehar]

hey bbt were do you work? you seem to know more than most about the forces so im guessing your a member or were ?
if so what element?

[BBT]

Nope, never have been been a member. Came close. Wanted to go to RMC, but parents convinced me not to. Dad had been in Army (WWII) and didn't like the idea.

Anyway, the froces and things military have a huge interest for me. I have an avid interest in military history, and keep up with things I see and read. I sometimes come across things in obscure publications.

Of course, being here in Ottawa, there is ALWAYS the political element as well.

[Pte Socks]

Hehehe yea, I guess living in Ottawa would have that effect. Hey Kellehar, you happy about your pay raise? Personally im overall quite happy with the budget, maybe a minority gov't isnt bad after all, it keeps everyone on their toes and seems to have the publics best interest.

[Cpl_kellehar]

yeah its a nice chunk of change in my pocket seeing that its being back paid back to last april. before tax' s it about $2500 so i'll end up walking away with about $1500.but its about time they stared throwing some money our way. maybe we can now get our fleet of hlvw's fixed seeing that 96% of them are down.

[Gimli]

Originally posted by Pte_kellehar
yeah its a nice chunk of change in my pocket seeing that its being back paid back to last april. before tax' s it about $2500 so i'll end up walking away with about $1500.but its about time they stared throwing some money our way. maybe we can now get our fleet of hlvw's fixed seeing that 96% of them are down.

So Justin, got any plans for the GA with all that backpay money? :)

[Cpl_kellehar]

new triple tread goodyear tires for her and maybe some detailing done

[Blackrider]

Originally posted by Pte_kellehar
new triple tread goodyear tires for her and maybe some detailing done
How much are you getting, I worked mine out to be 1500

[Cpl_kellehar]

my coy clerks have worked out that after taxs it should be around $1500 the same as you but now im hearing that we dont get it till the mid of april.

[Blackrider]

Originally posted by Pte_kellehar
my coy clerks have worked out that after taxs it should be around $1500 the same as you but now im hearing that we dont get it till the mid of april.
Yup, we are the last to get it

[Pte Socks]

Wow, here I am, still sitting on my as waiting for the army. I kinda said screw it now till the fall, chances are, I wont have a chance till the fall or something. Oh, just an update, I got my job at Wall Mart, now im a oil and lube Tech so if you need tires changed, I could see what I can do. Damn Wallmart only gives us a 10% discount off everything, but I bet I could get some deals if Im doing the labour.

[Tyler_S]

Don't forget, world record for a kill while under fire is held by a Canadian sniper, 2,430 metres.

Using American bullets. ;)

Neo. What branch are you joining? Regular, reserve? Are you going Combat arms or support (ie:WOG)?

Get used to waiting. I know some guys in my unit that have wanted to transfer over to the regular force that have been waiting almost a year, if not more. The process is incredibly slow for some reason. Most people in the reserves blame the delay on the reg force staffers who are in charge of the recruiting. Back in the 80's if you wanted to join the reserves you only had to wait a few days. Now it can take months because of all the extra tests they perform and the lack of staff to perform them.

As for funding... I really don't think that funding for the armed forces has everything to do with why we are so poorly equipped. Pumping money into a bad system isn't going to fix things. It's like trying to fix a leaky hose by running more water through it. The forces spends too much money on things that it shouldn't, it's horribly inefficient.

For example: The federal liberals control who gets the government contracts for supplying the CF. Most of those contracts end up in Quebec, and the CF ends up having to pay almost twice what they would have to if they just shopped around and bought foriegn kit. I was told that a 5.56 NATO standard bullet costs the army almost one dollar a round. Buy one in the civillian world, and it costs half that. The Iltis Jeeps from Bombardier cost something like $30,000 a piece! Even the conservative government under Mulroney gave us a crappy deal on the LSVW from Western Star, we paid almost $80,000 a pice for a crappy Italian designed truck.

Anyways, it doesn't stop there and I could go on and on. But I'm sure you get the point.

Tyler

[DCRabbit]

What gets the money are the things that make the politicos look good. Like the JTF2 and whatever equipment purchase they can make hay with in the media. What the forces need is money for infrastructure repair and maintnenance and retaining experienced personnel for training. Annnnd.. much less involvement by the politicos in thr procurement process.

[Tyler_S]

Originally posted by DCRabbit
Annnnd.. much less involvement by the politicos in thr procurement process.

It's been going on since the days of old, and it'll never change.

Remember the Ross rifle?

[BBT]

Originally posted by Tyler_S
It's been going on since the days of old, and it'll never change.

Remember the Ross rifle?

Ross rifle? Ha! I doubt any of us using this forum are THAT old.........:D

But yeah...the politicians will never stay out of military procurement. Why would they? There will never be a government that will simply hand over 'X' billions of buckazoids to DND and just let 'em do what they want with it.

Now what you want is politicians that will listen to good advice from the military on what is needed & required. Of course, we also need a government that will have some discussion and make some decisions on what they really want the military to do, here & abroad, in conjunction with our treaties & agreements, in order to start determining the make up of the forces and the equipiment, numbers, training,etc. required to meet those goals.

As it is, for some time, the forces in Canada have been a big part of social policy, rather than a force for the defence of the country.

[Tyler_S]

Originally posted by BBT As it is, for some time, the forces in Canada have been a big part of social policy, rather than a force for the defence of the country. [/B]

Yep.

The liberals (as well as a good deal of 'higher ups') and the Canadian public at large are too afraid to admit that soldiers are meant to fight wars and that they train to *gasp* kill people. They'd rather envision us doing the shiney, happy things; like policing war torn, third world countries, rebuilding schools, and feeding poor people.... or shoveling the streets of Toronto. :roll2:

It's no wonder why they are phasing out the Leopard tanks and the M-109 SP howitzer in favour of LAV III variants of the two that can't even hope to perform the same roles as the originals.

Everytime I hear people refer to our soldiers as "PeaceKeepers", I cringe.

Tyler