Just ranting about plastic

[cage47]

I've just gotta vent. I mean why do they have to use so much plastic in cars. I'm working on fixing that water leak and I've got broken plastic all over in my dash. I have two panels that are shattered brittle plastic. I've pieced one back together and used metal tabs to rebuild the other. And I had an annoying problem. I couldn't get the air to change direction. The blower would only blow out the front vents. It wouldn't go to the windshield for defogging or on the floor. While I had the dash apart I chased it out. I found there was no vacuum to the switch. All the little rubber hoses were connected. But the supply line connects to a plastic tube. I chased it to the firewall on the right side with the wire connection, all the way across the fire wall to the left side. Then down the front of the car where it connected to the vacuum reserve tank. What a pisser. The plastic line was broken just 6 inches above the canister. And that's the 3rd vacuum line I've had to replace since I did the LIM gasket. two broke then. They broke just disconnecting them. I think that could be what happened to this one as it connects to the upper plennum after that. I had to shorten this one since I had no more vacuum tubes left. I need a drink!

[Brandon]

I think all the plastic clips except for 3 are broken on my car that hold the "ram air" plastic sheild thingy on the front under the hood..... seems like you just think about them and they break.

[Subtle_Cynicism]

That's all it takes for those ones Brandon. I lost several when I tried getting it off.

Some dedicated car gurus may say we are doing something wrong, but I've found this to be true; both on my Firebird and Grand Am.

Plastic is cheaper to replace probably, and doesn't rust, but it breaks far too easy.

[JoeyK]

#1 reason; weight reduction to meet epa fuel efficiency standards. .. also, you every stop & think how difficult it would be to make some of those parts out of metal? Not to mention it's quicker, easier & therefore cheaper to produce most parts of plastic. Recycled plastic & an even bigger cost advantage. I could go on. I know it gets frustration sometimes but a world w/out plastic would be a very primitive one. It has enabled man to design & build many amazing things. W/out it we'd be extremely limited in achieving or design goals & dreams.

[Pte Socks]

Personally, I totally agree that sometimes, there is just too much plastic on cars. I hate those little plastic taps that you have to remove with a special tool or in my case, two flat headed screwdrivers pulling on them to remove the ram air shield and various other parts.

[jayhawk]

HEY...lets not knock plastics. Plastics makes things possible. Oh the wonderful goodness of plastic.

And no, I am not a toadie for the American Plastic council.


*This message brought to you by the American Plastics Council. Copyright 2005, all rights reserved. Mess with us and you'll be wearing cement, er, plastic shoes!!

[onesexyga]

Ive found the best way to get those clips off is with a set of wire cutters. You just set them on so that they grab each side and pull up. Then you dont have to worry about working 2 tools simultaneously.

[cage47]

1S GA thanks. I didn't think of that. I'm going to do that when I fix my front bumper skin by the fog lamp.

Thing is. Sure they use plastic. But this seems to be the chincyest cheap arse brittle stuff I've ever dealt with. If they're going to use plastic they could at least make is hearty enough to hold up. Oh, but that would make the cars last, wouldn't it? And they WANT us to buy new cars. I still swear by my ga's but I sure wish engineering was better back then. From what I hear the G6 fixed some problems only to cause new ones.

[way2crazy05]

some parts should just never be made of plastic though. thats all there is to it.

[Themeneea]

plastic should be used from the things you cant see

[XtremeGrandAm]

There is excessive use of plastic on a lot of vehicles. It seems like GM uses a lot of cheap looking plastics.

[TA^Guy]

What would you rather have them use,,, wood?

[Brandon]

i think plastic is ok, but do something with it..... change the design of the way some of the fastners work or something.... the cosmetic plastic doesnt have to look like a cross over between carboard and plastic mused together either.... im not against plastic totally on cars.... but the way it looks or is made to look and the way they are designed to hold are less then desireable.

[Subtle_Cynicism]

I would rather them not use something that will either a.) frustrate me to the point of breaking it, or b.) breaking it from attempting to access it.

Those little clips on the Ram Air shrowd (sp?) were impossible to get off for me. The O-Ring around the headlights broke when I replaced my headlights and cost 17 bucks to replace.

For a piece of barely formed plastic.

I truly feel they make things cheap and plasticy because they can be fixed cheap, mass produced, and subtly provide for people bringing their cars to the dealer to get things done.

Making things hard on the car owner increases their business...

I'm sure someone will disagree with that, but not everyone is a genius with cars.

[cage47]

Originally posted by TA^Guy
What would you rather have them use,,, wood?

No but they shouldn't use it for structural stuff. Sure use it for trim and cosmetic stuff. But not stuff meant to hold vital parts together. Heck, even bumpers. I'd rather have a good solid piece of steel under my bumper skin rather than that plastic honeycomb stuff. A solid metal dash with plastic or foam trim for safety would be better all around. Help in keeping the car more stable in a crash. And why did they replace those old rubber tubes for these brittle plastic tubes. Durability?? I had rubber tubes on my old van that held up better than these tubes. Acutally I used some leftover 15 year old rubber tubes to fix the broken ones in my GA.

[TA^Guy]

Originally posted by cage47
Heck, even bumpers. I'd rather have a good solid piece of steel under my bumper skin rather than that plastic honeycomb stuff. A solid metal dash with plastic or foam trim for safety would be better all around.
The plastic honeycomb absorbs impact and acts as a cusion to protect you and structure damage from the vehicle.

Same goes for the solid metal dash. In a bad accident your going to be glad the dash wasn't metal with 1/4 of foam padding.

Originally posted by Subtle_Cynicism
Those little clips on the Ram Air shrowd (sp?) were impossible to get off for me. The O-Ring around the headlights broke when I replaced my headlights and cost 17 bucks to replace.

Making things hard on the car owner increases their business...

I'm sure someone will disagree with that, but not everyone is a genius with cars.
Those Ram Air clips are EASY to figure out, so easy even my wife knew how to remove them. And they are fairly durable, I remove ours atleast a dozen times a year. You shouldn't blame the part for breaking when you don't know what you are doing.

The retaining ring on the headlamp bulb is poorly made, I agree. The plastic could be a little thicker. I've snapped them several times but I have only paid $6 for them.

[XtremeGrandAm]

Originally posted by TA^Guy
What would you rather have them use,,, wood? I dont have a problem with plastic obviously because I keep buying GM vehicles. But I would rather see them use a higer grade plastic in some places and stronger plastics (such as the door clips and headlight clips and interior handles such as the hood release handle that I had break right off of my car in the cold)

[Subtle_Cynicism]

Originally posted by TA^Guy
The plastic honeycomb absorbs impact and acts as a cusion to protect you and structure damage from the vehicle.

Same goes for the solid metal dash. In a bad accident your going to be glad the dash wasn't metal with 1/4 of foam padding.


Those Ram Air clips are EASY to figure out, so easy even my wife knew how to remove them. And they are fairly durable, I remove ours atleast a dozen times a year. You shouldn't blame the part for breaking when you don't know what you are doing.

The retaining ring on the headlamp bulb is poorly made, I agree. The plastic could be a little thicker. I've snapped them several times but I have only paid $6 for them.

Several other people said they had problems with them too. I had to call up my ex-girlfriend's dad who works at Ford to figure out how to get them out. (My dad wasn't around), but even after that they were still a pain in the ass, and they're easy to break, even if you know what you're doing.

The retaining ring is poorly made, but I'm not sure where you live, John. I live in Upper Michigan, and they can charge us whatever the hell they want for parts because there's pretty much no where else to go...

[TA^Guy]

Originally posted by Subtle_Cynicism
Several other people said they had problems with them too. I had to call up my ex-girlfriend's dad who works at Ford to figure out how to get them out. (My dad wasn't around), but even after that they were still a pain in the ass, and they're easy to break, even if you know what you're doing.
You do know all you have to do is lift the center pin and the whole thing slides right out right?

Your not just prying them up are you?

It's a simple and easy principle that works and works well. Just like a screw into a dry wall anchor the plastic housing expands when the pin is pushed it keeping it from coming out.

Like I said before I have no ideal how you broke those.

Now for the typical barbed push clips (like the ones used on the inner fender liners) those will obviously get damaged when removed. For the most part they aren't ment to be removed and just about every auto maker uses them.

If you wan tto see a pain in the arse fastener check out the trunk liner on a VW Jetta. They use these funky square clips that you have to pinch to release. To bad they don't work that simple, you have to pinch, hard and use a screw driver to help pry them out.

[cage47]

Originally posted by TA^Guy

Those Ram Air clips are EASY to figure out, so easy even my wife knew how to remove them. And they are fairly durable, I remove ours atleast a dozen times a year. You shouldn't blame the part for breaking when you don't know what you are doing.

that's a pretty crass comment coming from a MOD. I've known my way around motors since I rebuilt my Grand Prix in 89. I know what those plastic lines are like and believe me, once those things get brittle there is no amount of easy fingering that is going to get them out without them crumbling in your hands. I know what those clips are like too. And it's the same thing. If they are on the hot engine they can get brittle too. And those tabs you're supposed to pull up on, even with a regulated tool, will break off.

As far as damage control. The first accident I had was with my old 75 Grand Prix (My second one) It was wet and I swerved to avoid a moron who couldn't stop and was doing a 360. When I swerved a toyota coming up on my right slammed into my passnger side. Trashed my door. I picked up a used door for $35 and put it on after ripping the old one off. The body was fine. The toyota sustained $2400 damage, nearly totalling it, to the driver front side. Aside from my door the body was untouched. I would trust my old 75 to any car now a days. And no matter what anyone says, when it comes to cars, size does matter. As long as you drive it as it's supposed to be driven (not driving a blazer like a camaro)

besides if you have your seat belt on, it won't matter what is in the dash, metal or plastic because you won't hit it. But the car won't crumple like a piece of aluminum foil.

[DontPassTheFence]

yea, damn the crumpliness of todays cars -- I rearended a GMC Jimmy (mid 90s I htink) with my 00 sentra at a mere 21 mph, not even fast enough to set off the air bags... and my car was crumpled to hell in the front. the hood was totalled, the radiator support was bent in several places, all the headlight retaining devices were shattered or squashed, and the grille was destroyed, along with the upper half of the front fascia.. yea thats durable. And the Jimmy's bumper was dented in a bit, about 500$ in repairs, while my car had over 7K in damage (it was totalled).

[TA^Guy]

Originally posted by cage47
that's a pretty crass comment coming from a MOD. I've known my way around motors since I rebuilt my Grand Prix in 89. I know what those plastic lines are like and believe me, once those things get brittle there is no amount of easy fingering that is going to get them out without them crumbling in your hands. I know what those clips are like too. And it's the same thing. If they are on the hot engine they can get brittle too. And those tabs you're supposed to pull up on, even with a regulated tool, will break off.

As far as damage control. The first accident I had was with my old 75 Grand Prix (My second one) It was wet and I swerved to avoid a moron who couldn't stop and was doing a 360. When I swerved a toyota coming up on my right slammed into my passnger side. Trashed my door. I picked up a used door for $35 and put it on after ripping the old one off. The body was fine. The toyota sustained $2400 damage, nearly totalling it, to the driver front side. Aside from my door the body was untouched. I would trust my old 75 to any car now a days. And no matter what anyone says, when it comes to cars, size does matter. As long as you drive it as it's supposed to be driven (not driving a blazer like a camaro)

besides if you have your seat belt on, it won't matter what is in the dash, metal or plastic because you won't hit it. But the car won't crumple like a piece of aluminum foil.
What does it matter if I'm a mod or not?

I said those push pins are easy to remove, where's the problem???

And what's your point about your old '76 GP?

It's obvious that big tanks built in the 50's, 60's or '70s will be stronger. The metal was more dense which made them heavy.

Cars are built with crumple zones not to reduce the cost of repairs, but to save lives. The same reason they put plastic dashes in cars. I know many people that have been in accidents where they were trapped in a vehicle due to the being pinned in by the dash. Yes the seat belt will stop your head from hitting the dash, but what is stopping the dash from hitting your head? Wait until some drunk driver cuts into your lane head on and your both traveling at about 65mph. My money is that the dash won't remain in the stock location after impact.

With all these little compacts on the road today riding along with big powerful SUVs with short little women behind the wheel chatting on their cell phones and doing their make up while yelling at the kids safety is a big concern.

[TA^Guy]

Originally posted by DontPassTheFenc
yea, damn the crumpliness of todays cars -- I rearended a GMC Jimmy (mid 90s I htink) with my 00 sentra at a mere 21 mph, not even fast enough to set off the air bags... and my car was crumpled to hell in the front. the hood was totalled, the radiator support was bent in several places, all the headlight retaining devices were shattered or squashed, and the grille was destroyed, along with the upper half of the front fascia.. yea thats durable. And the Jimmy's bumper was dented in a bit, about 500$ in repairs, while my car had over 7K in damage (it was totalled).
My '86 Camaro was rearended buy a '88 Grand Am about 11 years ago. The Grand Am was nearly totaled and my Camaro suffered a 1.5" crack in the bumper cover and a twisted exhaust.

Had that rear bumper been metal it would have looked like hell, not to mention posible frame/chassis damage.