Front sway bar

[SilverGA2001]

Anyone with an aftermarket front sway bar that has time, please PM me sometime. Preferably a Next Level(Speedbuilt) sway. Thank you.

[Dave C]

Front wheel drive = better to get a rear swaybar (only)

[jayhawk]

Originally posted by Dave C
Front wheel drive = better to get a rear swaybar (only)

...And I have proved this. Better to get a rear swaybar and leave the front one alone. By doing so, your car will handle in a more neutral fashion, rather than oversteer.

[LordNor]

I ended up getting both, but since the rear bar was so popular and out of stock for a while, I drove around iwith just the front installed. I love the way the car takes corners, esp now that I have the rear done also. Before I had the rear done, I kinda got the feeling that it was going to break loose before the front, now it just feels smooth going around corners.


My question is... what is the real difference? I've read about oversteer but is there a test for it?

[PontiacGT]

yeah....

...And I have proved this

Lets see this proof....

[Dave C]

Talk to anyone who knows about racing suspension. I asked some guys on the Formula SAE team a while ago about it, and they agreed with just the rear sway bar. One of these guys just happened to have done a design project dealing with suspension for last years car. FWD cars naturally have understeer, and you'll overtighten the front end if you upgrade the front sway bar. Yes, it will still be driveable, but it will handle much better through the turns if you were to tighten up the rear and not the front, which would counter the understeer.

link to U of M's FSAE page, if you're interested: http://www.engin.umich.edu/soc/sae/Formula/

[sunrunner_pei]

Originally posted by fire_beast
yeah....



Lets see this proof....

Jay is/was a slalom racer... He knows more about handling than most on these forums.

EDIT: Not saying he's all-knowing, just that he has more experience than most. :)

[Rayz]

Originally posted by jayhawk
...And I have proved this. Better to get a rear swaybar and leave the front one alone. By doing so, your car will handle in a more neutral fashion, rather than oversteer.

:agree:

[SilverGA2001]

Without starting a war then, let's ask this. With Eibachs, front and rear STB's, and rear sway with ES bushings, what can you do about the unresponsiveness of the front end? My front end has large amounts of body lean compared to the rear, and it mushes out through corners easily. The rear is solid and will keep some of it in check, but still the front swings wide through the corners as the inside tire unloads to the outside corner. There's got to be a way to correct for this then. I'm not feeling a neutral feeling, at least not by my seat of the pants. If I cut through a right corner, the body weight shifts to the front left, which feels ungainly and hefty right now. It would stand to reason that a heavier front bar would act on some of these forces?

*Edit: I could see this being bad for a slalom course, as the weight would constantly be shifting back and forth and the car would always be unsettled, but for spirited street use, where your likely to face one corner at a time, how would it feel?

[jayhawk]

Originally posted by sunrunner_pei
Jay is/was a slalom racer... He knows more about handling than most on these forums.

EDIT: Not saying he's all-knowing, just that he has more experience than most. :)

Thanks Shawn! :D :blush:
My proof is this road to which I gained about 15-20 ( :eek: ) mph faster in the corners from all my suspension mods. Also ask my buddy Mitro how fast I was tearing through this road:
http://www.gaownersclub.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=446830

For SilverGA2001, are you still running the stock Eagle RS-A's? That makes a huge difference. If you are, get rid of them. Theyre in my opinion, a joke. Theyre made to be compliant to NVH, not to satisfy your driving desires. You may also want to look into urethane control arm bushings and urethane mounts and links for the front bar. Dont make the front bar larger, but instead exploit its potential.

[jayhawk]

Originally posted by Dave C
Talk to anyone who knows about racing suspension. I asked some guys on the Formula SAE team a while ago about it, and they agreed with just the rear sway bar. One of these guys just happened to have done a design project dealing with suspension for last years car. FWD cars naturally have understeer, and you'll overtighten the front end if you upgrade the front sway bar. Yes, it will still be driveable, but it will handle much better through the turns if you were to tighten up the rear and not the front, which would counter the understeer.

link to U of M's FSAE page, if you're interested: http://www.engin.umich.edu/soc/sae/Formula/

Thank you, Dave. :D

[LordNor]

Jay,

What you're saying makes sense. I didn't really understand what I was doing when I first modded my suspension but all I know is I love the results. I've got Cooper Zeon 2XS tires on 17" wheels, with eibachs, front and rear sway bar, and rear stb. I've got the front STB just don't have it installed yet.

[Pte Socks]

jayhawk, what suspension mods are you running, in paticular, your springs and struts?

[nice96gt]

I agree with jayhawk on this one...but aren't the results better on those cars with rear independent suspension? The 99+ GA's have it where as the 98 and older do not.

[SPECIALGAGT]

Interesting on the installation of after-market front sway-bars. Just how is this done on Grand Ams? Does one remove the stock item and substitute an after-market one? What is the point of that!? Has anyone seen a GA WITHOUT the factory front-sway? Plus: is it true that some of the Olds/Acheiva, and the Buick/Skylark models are factory built with rear sway-bars? Their frames are same as GA for some years, I hear. Anyone removed one from that application, I hear. Anyone here removed one from that application and installed it onto a GA ?

[SPECIALGAGT]

"" I gained about 15-20 mph "". Very interesting. When you are sure of the real, actual figures on the (maybe) "gain", do be sure to post them. Otherwise it's "seat-of-yer-pants opinion".
On most modern independent front suspensions, the inertial forces hitting the sprung-weight parts of the suspension go more directly to the vehicle's frame and the rest of the unsprung weight than do those same road-forces delivered to the rear (non-independent) suspension, as on Grand Ams, and some others. It is sort of like the ability of a 1-foot lever (front suspension part) to do more work than a 3-foot lever (rear suspension part), with force and fulcrum equal. Therefore it is easier to control unwanted efects in the front with a sway-bar than in the rear. If the vehicle never turns there will be no noticed effects of any sway-bar. """ asked some guys on the Formula SAE team a while ago about it, and they agreed with just the rear sway bar."""" I'll weigh the accumulated experience of engineer-drivers from Ford, MOPAR, Chrysler, Ferrari, Benz, Lambourghini and others against any not-for-profit-just-for-fun group of Supposed AuthenticExperts on this handling venue, thanks..

[Dave C]

Point of replacing sway bars is to have a stiffer one, they aren't all made the same.

I'll weigh the accumulated experience of engineer-drivers from Ford, MOPAR, Chrysler, Ferrari, Benz, Lambourghini and others against any not-for-profit-just-for-fun group of Supposed AuthenticExperts on this handling venue, thanks..

Thats a cheap shot... I was just weighing in with the info that I had and where it came from. These people from the Society of Automotive Engineers will be the people working for companies like this in a few years. Where did your info come from? It would help if you could type in complete sentences (not run-on) so I could better understand the thoughts you are trying to convey. Also, I don't believe that Ferrari and Lamborghini work with many FWD cars.

And what do you do for a living? You probably don't work for any of the companies you listed if you're driving a 96 Grand Am...

[SPECIALGAGT]

Look who's talkin' !! Did it ever enter you SFB head that a man may own more than one set of wheels? I own several, not all running at this point. But I only post my GAGT here for fun. And you cannot even pick up on a quoted "run-on" sentence when you encounter it. Your PP argument falls out to be nothing more than an ad hominen statement with no more validity than your supposed "accumulated experience." Well, that's all I have too, so let's get on with performance. Thanx

[jayhawk]

Originally posted by SPECIALGAGT
"" I gained about 15-20 mph "". Very interesting. When you are sure of the real, actual figures on the (maybe) "gain", do be sure to post them. Otherwise it's "seat-of-yer-pants opinion".


No, its not seat of pants opinion. I have driven this road countless times in my Sunfire, first stock, then with better rims and tires, then with lowering springs, and then with the rear sway bar. Also during this time I forced myself to learn driving techniques like load transfer, rev matching left foot braking and heel-and-toe downshifting. Fact of the matter is, why would I go and post these numbers...to make me look special? To lie? Maybe you should spend more time on this board, get to know me, instead of dropping in, giving your opinion and then running away.

When I drive, I dont do it half assed. PERIOD. Read the first line of my signature. I am intensity and I am driving passion. Im sure you'll comment on this. But before you do ask yourself this: What drives you? Even driving 1 mile to the gas station is for me practice, a chance for me to improve my driving skill.

So, half this gain is from the parts I used, and more importantly, half is from road knowledge, driving technique and experience.

Your comment regarding engineering; I have no doubt they are far beyond my measure of intelligence when using geometry to design a vehicles suspension. But they also design it to be compliant. So that average people can drive it and be safe. Im not an average driver, I want more from the drive, and understeer is sinful in my religion.

Bottom line is, I have done research. I have used real world roads. I have seen gains from this. Short of having another person in the car scribbling information, what do I need to do to convince you?

[jayhawk]

Originally posted by nice96gt
I agree with jayhawk on this one...but aren't the results better on those cars with rear independent suspension? The 99+ GA's have it where as the 98 and older do not.

Depends! Let me give you an example of 2 non Grand Ams:

The Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V on the skidpad, pulls about .88 G's Pretty impressive. Its rival, the Lancer Ralliart, pulls about .82 on the skid pad. Heres the kicker:

The Sentra has a straight rear axle with a Scott-Russell link.
The Lancer has 4 wheel independent suspension.

Its all about geometry, and how effective it is used. Ever notice on 1992-1998 Grand Ams and 1995 on up Sunfire / Caviliers the track width is wider in front then in the rear? Its for better turn-in during cornering.

Once again, I did my research, SPECIAL GAGT. :roll2:

[SilverGA2001]

Sorry to interupt you two fighting.. Here's my conclusion on the subject. With my springs, stb's, and upgraded rear sway bar, I believe the front is necessary to help aid the car in better handling. To help appease my mind, I went back to someone I knew with suspension experience and asked him what he thought. This is what Matt Fuller had to say in an emailed message.

Subject: RE: front sway bar disagreement
Date: Apr 19, 2005 4:10 PM

"Sorry it's taken me so long to respond.

I have been running a front anti-sway bar for years, and it's a must if you
have a bigger rear bar, FWD car or not.
The swaybar works by attempting to equalize the cornering pressures on the
sides of the car.
Now since you've already done a rear bar, you know how well it works - in a
nutshell, the outside rear tire has less available grip, so the car is more
willing to rotate. While this is a desireable attribute on a track (or any
other controlled environment), it has a nasty way of sneaking up on you on
the street. Also, by only doing a rear bar, you've changed the roll coupling
of your vehicle.....so the front-to-rear balance suffers. You may note that
during hard cornering, the inside rear tire will lift off the ground. Just
so you know, weight is transferred diagonally, not side-to-side. So in
return, your outside front tire gets so severely overloaded that your tire
starts to roll onto it's sidewall, further reducing grip. You think
understeer is bad now.....
Anyway, throwing in a front bar will help to restore the factory-tuned
roll-coupling of the car, and result in neutral, balanced handling traits.
You will notice a slightly rougher ride (the new bar is about 80% stiffer),
but the car will be more predicatable and easier to locate.

Depending on how you drive, the car may still understeer slightly, but you
can dial most of that out with tires and alignment fine-tuning. There's an
old saying - understeer slows you down, but oversteer makes you crash."

Now for some, they might not like the idea of balancing the handling like this, but for me this addressed so many of the gripes I had about the way the car is handling and what feelings and symptoms the car was exhibiting. I trust mfuller and have posted with him for a few years now, and he does have a good sense for handling, and I do know that his Alero was considered by all to be on rails. I've thought for a long time about it, and I just feel this is going to be best, for me at least.

[jayhawk]

^ :thumbup2:

[Dave C]

^^Very informative post. He sounds like he know what he is talking about, and has a very logical argument to back it up. I guess I acted like I knew more than I actually did in my first post. I was just trying to convey the info that I had, and where it came from. Sorry that it may have not been entirely correct.

As for SpecialGAGT, this post was not directed in any way to what you have posted, only in response to the information provided by SilverGA2001.

[SPECIALGAGT]

I guess it all boils down (after all the steam!) to the point that, large or small, front or rear, sway-bars are waykool because they do the job. Now this question:: why the gap in manufactured years that skips over 1996 to 1999 ( I think) ?? Was there a drop-offin sales for those models?? And why are there at least THREE different diameter front sway-bars for Gran Am ??