Car Won't Start (again)

[wildcanada1]

Hey everyone. I know this topic has been around for awhile, but I thought I'd write about my problem.

I have a 2001 Grand Am GT with about 60,000 Kms and it has been having problems starting lately. I've read through the topics and I think I'm going to rule out the Passlock problem because I don't get the flashing security light. Although I did try the relearn strategy and that never did anything.

The car will continually crank over but just won't fire. I don't even hear it attempting to fire at all, hence no spark or fuel .. I think.

If I turn the key to the on position and wait for 5 seconds, I can hear a small sputter like it was trying to fire but thats about it ... then it continues to crank and crank.

I had it towed to the dealership about 2 weeks ago and as soon as it got there, it started fine for the next 3 days. How stupid. Now 2 weeks later, it decided to act up again, thankfully in my parking spot at home.

What sort of things should I look for before taking it in?

Fuses? Spark? Fuel Filter? Fuel Pump?

Thanks for your help ..

Mike :???:

[ec-nasty]

When you put the key in the on position, and wait before cranking it, do you hear the fuel pump? You should be able to hear it come on and run for about 2-3 seconds.

[wildcanada1]

I think I do. I hear a distinct low humming noise and then when it stops, I attempt to start the car.

[wildcanada1]

I checked all the fuses and they seem to be fine. How do I check the fuel pump relay? Or should I just replace it?

[SlamedAM]

It wouldnt be a fuel pump relay if your fuel pump is coming on. The distinct humming you hear IS the fuel pump, however if one of your lines are clogged (left gas cap off in rain maybe?) or your fuel filter is old and nasty (and clogged) you'd be getting fuel pressure but only to the fuel filter, not to the injectors.

I dont see why it would be your fuel system though, I had an 87 nissan fuel injected and it didnt have fuel system issues til 175k.

The sack on the fuel pump (filter) had sucked up so much junk that it wasnt getting fuel to the filter thus not getting fuel to the injectors, thus no fire.

One way you can probably check to see if your getting fuel is to get some starter fluid and spray some of that mama jama in the intake and try to crank it. It should run for as long as that starter fluid is in there, until it burns up, then it should die.

If this works then you probably have a fuel issue.

If not, then I'd probably start looking at the ignition system.
(coils, spark plugs, etc etc)

[wildcanada1]

Great.. Thanks for the suggestion. I was thinking of trying the starter fluid thing tonight, but not entirely sure how to do that.

I'm a newbie, so bare with me.. where do I spray the starter fluid? Or should I say, where is the intake?

Thanks again
M

[rixGAphx]

Originally posted by wildcanada1
Great.. Thanks for the suggestion. I was thinking of trying the starter fluid thing tonight, but not entirely sure how to do that.

I'm a newbie, so bare with me.. where do I spray the starter fluid? Or should I say, where is the intake?

The intake is the black box behind the battery.
Use a screwdriver to loosen the lid.
That rectangular pleated paper thing is your air filter. Make sure it isn't clooged from years of dust and neglect.
The black rubber intake tube runs from the air filter box to the square black mtal thing with cables and wires; that's the throttle body.
With the engine 'off, pull back on the cables to open the throttle.
Spray the stuff into the intake tube, right above the air filter.

Now try cranking the engine. It should start, or at least 'cough' as though it wants to start.
If so, you've proven you have spark and so it's a fuel issue.
If no, you have proven that you have an ignition problem.

Good luck.
-Rick

PS: Follow directions on the Starter Fluid can.
Remember, this is special automotive spray stuff, it is NOT charcoal lighter fluid.

[RABS]

Hey,

I was having the same problem a few weeks ago. Does your car have power ie, keyless entrym trunk popper etc ?

If not it's your battery or the positive battery terminal. Disconnect it, and remove the red sleave and see how worn or deterioted your wire is. Mine was caked with corosion and would not give me a good enough connection to start. I took a metal brush to it and made it like new and tighted it up good and, there was enough juice in the battery to start it. I took it for a ride and charged it up.

Now all is well.

On the other hand it might not be this problem so check your car and read what everyone else has to say.

[wildcanada1]

Originally posted by rixGAphx
The intake is the black box behind the battery.
Use a screwdriver to loosen the lid.
That rectangular pleated paper thing is your air filter. Make sure it isn't clooged from years of dust and neglect.
The black rubber intake tube runs from the air filter box to the square black mtal thing with cables and wires; that's the throttle body.
With the engine 'off, pull back on the cables to open the throttle.
Spray the stuff into the intake tube, right above the air filter.

Now try cranking the engine. It should start, or at least 'cough' as though it wants to start.
If so, you've proven you have spark and so it's a fuel issue.
If no, you have proven that you have an ignition problem.

Good luck.
-Rick

PS: Follow directions on the Starter Fluid can.
Remember, this is special automotive spray stuff, it is NOT charcoal lighter fluid.

Great instructions Rick. Thanks.

I putlled off a spark plug wire, stuck a screw driver in, held it close to metal, and cranked it over.. there is a spark.

Next I sprayed some starter fluid into the air intake and the car tries to start.. it actually started for about 1-2 seconds, and then dies off.

So, by that, it looks as though I have a fuel problem hey?

I know I can't change the fuel filter or fuel pump by myself, but if there is anything else i should do before i take it in, please let me know.


Thanks
Mike

[mikem220153]

At this point you need to check your fuel pressure. A list of possible causes would be:

1. Clogged fuel filter
2. Defective fuel pressure regulator
3. Defective Fuel Injector harness

You can check to see if you getting any fuel from the tank by turning the key to the run postition and let the pump run until it stops. This will pressurize the fuel system. Then take the cap off of the fuel rail test fitting and depress the spring loaded valve and see if fuel squirts out under a good amount of pressure. If it just dribbles out, then you should suspect the fuel filter or the fuel pressure regulator. If it does squirt out under pressure, take a look at the fuel injector harness for possible electrical problems.

Ideally if you had access to fuel pressure guage, you could get a much more accurate check but without it you can try the steps I listed above and get a ball park idea of what is going on.

Good Luck

[ICEBOX]

What kind of fuel pressure is typical on the 3.4L engine?

[mikem220153]

Should read some where between 38 and 44 PSI.

[rixGAphx]

Originally posted by wildcanada1
I pulled off a spark plug wire, stuck a screwdriver in, held it close to metal, and cranked it over.. there is a spark.
This is a test of the ignition system, to know you have SOME spark.
Beware in the future, however, that tho this indicates spark, the sprk may not be hot enough for ignition (a weak battery may produce a weak spark).

Next I sprayed some starter fluid into the air intake and the car tries to start.. it actually started for about 1-2 seconds, and then dies off.
This does confirm a strong spark.

So, by that, it looks as though I have a fuel problem hey? Exactly.

I know I can't change the fuel filter
Fuel filter is actually a piece of cake. Do a 'search' if you want to do find how to do it.

But, I seriously doubt that's your problem.
Reason: Unless the FF is severely clogged, a little fuel will ALWAYs get passed and into the Fuel Rail, where it will be at full pressure for a second or two at start-up (assuming the rest of the system is in good shape).
Since you do NOT have fuel spraying into the manifold, there are four basic causes IMO:
1. No pressure (because the fuel pump is shot; it may make noise as its little motor turns it, but if the internal seals are shot it won't pump any fuel.
A bad fuel pump fuse would result in no 'hum' and no pressure).
2. No pressure (because the PCM isn't telling the fuel pump to come on; 'Passlock' is just the PCM shutting-off power to the fuel pump. If you hear the 'hum' of the pump when ignition is turned 'on', then this canNOT be the cause).
3. No pressure (because the Fuel Pressure regulator has seized and isn't holding pressure; I don't know how to specifically test for this.).
Check the pressure at the fuel rail cap, as mikem described.
You don't have to really 'measure' it with a gage, just put a rag there to catch a couple tbls. of leaking gas. If it has any pressure, it will flow out.
4. Pressure is good, but the injectors aren't opening:
** Either the harness to ALL the injectors is damaged; or,
** The PCM is sending out no commands to ANY of the injectors (I doubt it would do this unless the PCM also shut-off the FP and set codes).

[Can't change] fuel pump by myself, but if there is anything else i should do before i take it in, please let me know.

1. Do the simple tests above.
2. Make sure your battery terminals are clean and tight. GA's do NOT like low batteries or cables connections.
3. Make sure you have a good level of gasoline in the tank. The fuel level gage can go VERY screwy, and you can be empty when it reads 3/8 or even 1/2 full.
Add two gallons of fresh gasoline before you waste a dime or minute on troubleshooting.
4. The PCM will store codes and NOT say 'check engine', if it isn't storing critical emissions codes. So, get the codes read.

Good luck.
-Rick

[wildcanada1]

Thanks everyone for your valuable input.

I had the car towed into the dealership and luckily it didn't start there.. so they were able to search for the problem.

Looks like it was the fuel pump afterall and it wasn't CHEAP. I wish I was more technically inclined with cars so I could have done it myself.. oh well.

Fuel Pump: $550.00
Labor: $180.00
Diagnostic: $75.00

*Prices are in Canadian dollars btw.

I probably did get hosed, but I needed a car. Maybe when I get out of my condo and into a house with a garage I can do a little more myself.

But thanks again for all of the help!!

Mike

[rixGAphx]

I thought they waived the diagnostic fee if they did the work then and there? Greedy SOB's.

A genuine Delco FP thru NAPA was ~$220US at NAPA 2 years ago. Looks like typical dealer inflation.

I think the $180CN on labor was a bargain, since you must drop the exhaust to get to the tank, then drop the tank, R&R the FP, and reinstall tank.
Anybody is more efficient than me, solo on my back in the driveway doing this, but still that only works out to about 3 hrs at $60CN per hour.

Did it come with the 'Mr Goodwrench' lifetime warranty?
Or is that a US thing, and is it even still offered??

In the future, know that ANY decent mechanic can do ANY work on the GA, and their rates will be less than a GM dealer.
The model has been around so long that nearly everybody has 'been there, done that' on a GA.

Glad you're on the road again.
-Rick