MORE HP for the 3.4

[gunblaze]

Hi everyone

I did a search bid didn't find a whole lot on the subject. So if I'm wrong by posting this please dirrect me to the right link.

I have a 2003 Grand Am SE with the 3.4 in it. I was wondering are there any mods to up the HP besides a SUPERCHARGER. I already have a CAI and high flow exhaust. Is there anything else? I can't afford to go with something spendy like forced air ie. turbo/supercharger.:worship1:

[Bjornboy81]

This has actually been discussed a million times...try searching again. But in the mean time, there's many performance mods out there such as cams, P&P heads, manifolds, headers, PCM reprogram, and underdrive pulleys.

Check out some of the links in my sig, but also check out www.mantapart.com and www.milzymotorsports.com

Also, at www.donkeypunchperformance.com they have turbo setups for pretty cheap ($1500) that come with everything you need. I know you said no boost, but if you're referring RSM racing super when you said it's too expensive, RSM tends to be expensive. But if $1500-2000 is in your buget, there's other places out there. :)

good luck!

[gunblaze]

Originally posted by Bjornboy81
This has actually been discussed a million times...try searching again. But in the mean time, there's many performance mods out there such as cams, P&P heads, manifolds, headers, PCM reprogram, and underdrive pulleys.

Check out some of the links in my sig, but also check out www.mantapart.com and www.milzymotorsports.com

Also, at www.donkeypunchperformance.com they have turbo setups for pretty cheap ($1500) that come with everything you need. I know you said no boost, but if you're referring RSM racing super when you said it's too expensive, RSM tends to be expensive. But if $1500-2000 is in your buget, there's other places out there. :)

good luck!


Cool thanks man:rockdude: :thanks:

[GrandAmKid16]

Yea donkeypunch is a good deal, the people there are really friendly. I would say read up on there forum. However getting into turbo's don't expect to just bolt it on and no prob's, I would recommend a built trans along with any of there set-up's. 45t's are the weakest trany's GM makes, axles can handle it, and the rest is all in tuning :o). I was looking into the stage 2 but decided keep my car nice, baby it, sell it and get the new Evo IX after college :o)...but good luck man that would be sweet to see another boosted GA!!! :D

[MacAirborne]

Why put a turbo on a car with a flat torque curve? thats a waste of money.

[gunblaze]

IMO forced air on any engine is never a waste of money.

Not when your talking about a 25% HP gain or more.

but like I said I don't have the extra cash to put into a forced air setup right now.

I was wondering if there was other things I could do.

Now I have some Ideas. I found level 1 and level 2 heads and cams for it as well as underdrive pully's.

[Bjornboy81]

Originally posted by MacAirborne
Why put a turbo on a car with a flat torque curve? thats a waste of money. Can you elaborate why?

IMO putting a turbo on a engine that develops 95% of it's torque at 2000 rpms is better! With most turbo setups there's going to be some turbo lag, especially with bigger turbos. But if you have good torque at 2000 rpms, at least you won't have to wait until 4000+ rpms to really start moving...with low rpm torque development, you can still have a good launch and then enjoy the affects of the turbo. Know what I mean? :)

[DRMALIKIA]

The 3400 block was not made to be a beefy bad boy. Its an economical engine in a car that doesn't look so economical. You could honestly spend upwards of $13000 for all of RSM Racings add ons and you still won't have that great of an engine. Why not just upgrade to a crate 3800 Supercharged Series III? Out of the crate I have seen as low as $3000-$5000. Doesn't mean you won't spend a ton extra on getting it wired, different tranny, radiator, etc.

I have been prospecting with a few mechanics who dabble in modern car customization with installing a Northstar 4.8 L V* out of the later Model Sedan Devilles (same engine that is forget the actual engine number). The engine alone with the transmission that comes out of the Caddy can be had for $7000. Be interesting to see. I gave up on upgrading the 3400 a long time ago. Just not enough there to make much out of it.

Also be intersting to see what some of the new G6 engines are like and the possibility of placing one of those into a Grand Am. The G6 is a close cousin at least and would be less of a hassle with all the engine MODS just to have an engine with better standard output. Comments & Suggestions?

[gunblaze]

Ya I would really like to do that, but I cant really justify 5-8 grand on doing that.

I mean for that much extra cash I could trade in the Grand Am all together and just start out with a better car to begine with.

You know what I mean?

[Bjornboy81]

Originally posted by DRMALIKIA
The 3400 block was not made to be a beefy bad boy. Its an economical engine in a car that doesn't look so economical. You could honestly spend upwards of $13000 for all of RSM Racings add ons and you still won't have that great of an engine. Why not just upgrade to a crate 3800 Supercharged Series III? Out of the crate I have seen as low as $3000-$5000. Doesn't mean you won't spend a ton extra on getting it wired, different tranny, radiator, etc.

I have been prospecting with a few mechanics who dabble in modern car customization with installing a Northstar 4.8 L V* out of the later Model Sedan Devilles (same engine that is forget the actual engine number). The engine alone with the transmission that comes out of the Caddy can be had for $7000. Be interesting to see. I gave up on upgrading the 3400 a long time ago. Just not enough there to make much out of it.

Also be intersting to see what some of the new G6 engines are like and the possibility of placing one of those into a Grand Am. The G6 is a close cousin at least and would be less of a hassle with all the engine MODS just to have an engine with better standard output. Comments & Suggestions?

1. The red is hard to read
2. An upgrade to a s/c 3800 would cost 10 times more than throwing a turbo on a 3400. Yes you won't have nearly the same performance, but he wanted a hot rod he would have bought one. He was looking for decent mods at the begining of this thread, not swaping out engines :)

[Bjornboy81]

damn you're a fast poster :lol:

[Prospeeder]

Well a turb is never a bad idea, and turbo lag isnt a problem on V6 engines unless you go massive, get a T3 or somthing, no bigger, the 3400 will instantly boost a Double ball bearing turbo. And my 3.1 and a 3400 are basicly the same motors, just bored and stroked and timed fuel injection, of course other things too, but the blocks almost the same. My 3.1 has a T25 on it and turbo lag has to be programmed into the computer or else the turbo will spool half way just at idle! and will choke itself and massivly overboost if you get anywhere over 2k with the wastegate closed. So turbo lag isnt a problem, BUT the 3.1 Turbo has a forged crank, better fuel pump, bigger injectors, and a beefed up tranny, so i would look into bigger injectors, higher flow fuel pump, and some beefier internals for the transmission if you go that way, and a T3 or T28 turbo, nothing to big, you wont need it, the 60* v6s cant exactly take upwards of 20lbs of boost without some serious internal work. Not to mention the custom xover and down pipe, oil and coolant routing, computer work, its a huge project.

[slowbird]

The 3400 won't need anywhere near 20lbs to make crazy power.

There are 3400 powered vehicles running 12's with only 10psi on stock motors.

A 3400 with highflowing Heads, intakes, TB, with a good Boost Cam, and everything in good tune would run 11's no problem. Without having more than 12PSI. (Which a stock 3400 can handle)

If you want to go crazy than get a Centrifigul Charger Like RSM, or get a Turbo setup. Don't expect the Grand Am Tranny to last long though.
...and I've seen guys with the RSM kit only running low 14's....which is sad for a 3400 with boost.

I'd personally like to go the Xonelith route. Good Heads, Good Intakes, Headers, exhaust and a wild Cam.

[xxbackhillxx]

Originally posted by Bjornboy81

2. An upgrade to a s/c 3800 would cost 10 times more than throwing a turbo on a 3400.

It would probably cost the same amount give or take a few hundred dollars in the end. It has already been done, and the only large cost that the guy had was the motor and tranny itself. altogether it wasnt much more than the turbo's that germ sells on dpp.

Originally posted by slowbird

There are 3400 powered vehicles running 12's with only 10psi on stock motors.

Where?

[slowbird]

Right here:

Stock 3400 (Remote Mount Turbo) Cavalier (http://www.v6z24.com/registry/89jyturbo/)

[xxbackhillxx]

:roll2: that doesnt count. The weight of that cavi is significantly lighter than that of a grand am. That, and the injectors were upgraded, so the motor isn't entirely stock as you claimed. It's like saying a stock LS1 can do 10's ... when mounted to a go cart.

I'm not trying to call you out on anything, but you're comparing apples to oranges when you look at a 3400 in a cavi and a 3400 in an n-body. Show me a turbo'd 3400 grand am with a stock motor that is even in the 13's and i'll give you a cookie.

Point is, a turbo with nothing else won't do much as far as performance goes when you compare turbo setups on other motors. The gain/price ratio isn't as appealing as it is on other platforms.

[slowbird]

So the injectors have been changed. Big Whoop. You should be changing the injectors in a Grand Am if you are boosting it anyways! Ensuring that the car will never run lean....ever!

C'mon man. That 3400 Cavalier has the same internals as any 3400 in a Grand Am, except that it doesn't have the benefit of fine tuning that OBDII allows.
You know how that car is tuned? A RRFuel Presure Regulator that increases Fuel pressure when it see's boost.

Ooooh Fancy technology.

...and it's Remote Mount Turbo in his daily driver that he drives through rain, sleet, and SNOW!

3 Things that car has over a Boosted Grand Am.

1. Weight
2. Gear ratio
3. Alcohol Injection.

You can make up for that stuff in a Grand Am with precision tuning, 3" exhaust and an Intercooler.
Grand Am owners can add alcohol injection...and they can change Fuel and Spark tables and fine tune it well.

[xxbackhillxx]

Your point is moot at best.

And you cannot make up for weight, gear ratio, or alcohol injection on a Grand Am. The 99+ n-bodies still have a ways to go before anyone hits 12's. The most heavily modded n-body to date is still running 13.2-13.3's.

The significant mods he has are alcohol injection, a beefed tranny, cam, and a fully built motor all the way down to the pistons and rods. And yes, he does his own "precision" tuning as you call it.

Like I said before, your claim that a 3400 in a cavi can do 12's is comparing apples to oranges when compared to the n-body.

[Keebler]

While I am new and don't know jack yet about thse motors, I'm definitly not a noob to Boosting. I do agree that before anyone should thing about just smacking on a turbo, to build the motor and tranny up.

[slowbird]

I said that a 3400 powered car can do 12's on a Stock motor and I made my point.

A 2nd Gen Cavalier weights 300-400lbs less than a N-Body. The rule of thumb is 1 tenth for every 100lbs (roughly). So .4 seconds.

If that guy can do 12's in a Stock 3400 with 10psi through a remote mount turbo, with no intercooler, no tuning, through 2.5" exhaust (stock exhaust manifolds...no fancy Turbo headers), and alcohol injection activated after 6psi...

...then someone with a N-Body can do it too. It can be done...just no one has.

and my second point of this post was that: A completely 100% Stock 3400 engine in good tune can handle 10psi without internal modification. It's been done over and over and over again. It will not grenade as long as the engine is tuned properly.

[Dargasonus]

Originally posted by xxbackhillxx
:roll2: that doesnt count. The weight of that cavi is significantly lighter than that of a grand am. That, and the injectors were upgraded, so the motor isn't entirely stock as you claimed. It's like saying a stock LS1 can do 10's ... when mounted to a go cart.

I'm not trying to call you out on anything, but you're comparing apples to oranges when you look at a 3400 in a cavi and a 3400 in an n-body. Show me a turbo'd 3400 grand am with a stock motor that is even in the 13's and i'll give you a cookie.

Point is, a turbo with nothing else won't do much as far as performance goes when you compare turbo setups on other motors. The gain/price ratio isn't as appealing as it is on other platforms.

Well I can't show you the 13 second car. But what if we all get together and get a GAOC group buy on your cookies.