cross drilled rotors

[VanishingImage]

Been looking for some aftermarket rotors to get since I have my rims now and will be painting my calipers when it gets warmer out and need something to finish them off. Ive found the RSM Slotted rotors,PowerSlot slotted rotors,and I also have found SummitRacing's cross drilled rotors. The RSM rotors are 60 bucks a piece,the Power Slots are like 70 bucks(they vary from place to place) and the SummitRacing cross drilled rotors are like 41 bucks a piece. I have a few friends that have the PowerSlot rotors and they have found that they wear out the brake pads and a couple even noticed warping.

Should I go for the slotted or go for the Cross-drilled? I would most likely get ceramic pads(if I can find a good price one some,if anyone could point me in a good direction for some) if the rotors call for the use of them.

[99GrandAMSE]

... I like my slotted :)

[SilverGA2001]

Originally posted by VanishingImage
Been looking for some aftermarket rotors to get since I have my rims now and will be painting my calipers when it gets warmer out and need something to finish them off. Ive found the RSM Slotted rotors,PowerSlot slotted rotors,and I also have found SummitRacing's cross drilled rotors. The RSM rotors are 60 bucks a piece,the Power Slots are like 70 bucks(they vary from place to place) and the SummitRacing cross drilled rotors are like 41 bucks a piece. I have a few friends that have the PowerSlot rotors and they have found that they wear out the brake pads and a couple even noticed warping.

Should I go for the slotted or go for the Cross-drilled? I would most likely get ceramic pads(if I can find a good price one some,if anyone could point me in a good direction for some) if the rotors call for the use of them.

I have ill feelings for RSM, so I won't do business with them. Don't know about Summit too much.

I had Powerslots, and they were pretty good. In the end, they were extremely warped, and couldn't be resurfaced without going past the legal limit. They lasted 20,000 miles plus, which is about 4 times what I got out of any OEM rotor. They did warp, but if they could withstand my driving for that long, I'm willing to buy them again. I used Performance Friction pads with them, which were kind of dirty combined with the slots, but I had a lifetime warranty on them at Autozone. Slots worked nice I think, and they looked pretty cool through the rims. :)

[wokeupscreamin]

I've done alot of reasearch on this topic and lots of experts say that for our application, slotted and/or drilled rotors are poinltess. All they are going to do is eat up your pads. If you are running a pure drag car going from 120+ down to zero alot then it would make sence to have them but for a daily driver... they arn't practical. Get some good solid rotors and spend the extra money on good ceramic pads. If you wanna go crazy, and really improve your braking... find some 4 piston or 6 piston calipers that will somehow bolt in place. Without a super charged V8 or insainly tuned and turbo'ed 4 banger rocket, you will be spending an ass load on replacing eaten pads and warped rotors. (I've learned this lesson the hard way.)

[dmbprep69]

My fronts r drilled and slotted and i got em off ebay and when I brought my car to the shop they said they were some of the best on the market! So look for them on ebay i think i got mine for 70 bux for the pair!
Peace,
Andrew

[99GrandAMSE]

Originally posted by wokeupscreamin
I've done alot of reasearch on this topic and lots of experts say that for our application, slotted and/or drilled rotors are poinltess. All they are going to do is eat up your pads. If you are running a pure drag car going from 120+ down to zero alot then it would make sence to have them but for a daily driver... they arn't practical. Get some good solid rotors and spend the extra money on good ceramic pads. If you wanna go crazy, and really improve your braking... find some 4 piston or 6 piston calipers that will somehow bolt in place. Without a super charged V8 or insainly tuned and turbo'ed 4 banger rocket, you will be spending an ass load on replacing eaten pads and warped rotors. (I've learned this lesson the hard way.)

... I don't necessarily agree with you but a good set of solid rotors are "good enough" for most people but to say a set of slotted rotors (or cross drilled) will not work better, is wrong IMO ... I have had a set of solids with ceramic pads and they worked "OK" but them replaced the solids with slotted, using the same pads and the difference was definitely noticeable!! :)

[VanishingImage]

cuz I know a couple people who have slotted and said they noticed a difference in their braking, and only have one friend who has the cross-drilled and he couldn't give me an answer because he never had slotted so he couldn't say whether or not the cross-drilled was better or wose,but said they were better then the solid/blank rotors. Have seen a few people saying the slotted ones warp??

[Foxy]

As I said in another post, rotors rarely actually warp. It's usually pad deposits caused by not bedding in the pads correctly. Follow the instructions provided with your pads (or let me know and I'll give you a basic run-down), and they ought not to warp.

Also, it's critical that you use decent pads. No-name ones from the brake place down the street are no-name for a reason.

Powerslot rotors have a decent reputation in the Subie community. I just ordered a set for my STi, and I'm waiting on them.

Personally, I would stay far away from cross-drilled rotors. Cheap cross-drilled rotors (ie, $41 ones) are cross-drilled by simply drilling through the rotor. This is done purely for looks, and not for any performance concerns. The holes concentrate stress, and they'll crack if you put any serious use on them.

http://www.99pline.com/images/cracked_rotorSM.jpg
See it?

Personally, I'd rather go with slotted or plain quality rotors.

[99GrandAMSE]

Originally posted by Foxy
... No-name ones from the brake place down the street are no-name for a reason ...

I like it ... HAHAHA

[99GrandAMSE]

Originally posted by Foxy
... rotors rarely actually warp ...

I agree with everything you're saying and I believe it will hold true to steel rotors or "better quality" ones but the "garbage" version that come standard on most cars made from cast iron are very prone to warping ... very similar to the process of heating up a cast iron skillet and then throwing water on it ... now, the idea uneven pad deposits may play a factor even in the case of cast iron rotors, I do know actual warping does take place being I have dialled them on a lathe and measured how far they run out :)

[SilverGA2001]

I saw that other post, and wanted to say I disagreed then, but I will now. Like Kelly said, rotors do warp, especially the GA's stock rotors. Eventually, even my power slots warped, and suffered surface cracks like all my other rotors. I am pretty tough on my braking system though, making lots of hard stops. (Friend of mine once said I'm the only driver that he's ever seen that speeds up when he sees a stop sign ahead, how true is it? Dunno, but it was a funny comment.) I just really heat things up sometimes. I did like Powerslots, as they were much tougher then the OEM's. They took much more abuse, and withstood the PF pads much better then a OEM rotor would have.

[Foxy]

Hmm, I'm not that familiar with the stock rotors on GA's. However, I'd be really, really, really surprised if the rotors were actually physically warping.

On my Subie forum, there are quite a few professional/really well funded privateer racers. One guy actually campaigned a WRX with the stock rotors and calipers through an entire season of racing (there was a severe weight penalty for switching to anything other than OE) and never warped the rotors (though he did cook the hell out out pretty much everything attached to the brakes - bearings, tie rods, you name it, it had to be replaced; the pads and fluid were built to handle insanely high temps) - but he never warped the stock rotors. None of the rally drivers warp their rotors, and they're braking hard enough to get them glowing before plunging through mud and wet dirt and streams.

And if you let me quote from a worker at Stoptech (they are quite a respected brake manufacturer):


Myth # 1 – BRAKE JUDDER AND VIBRATION IS CAUSED BY DISCS THAT HAVE BEEN WARPED FROM EXESSIVE HEAT.


The term "warped brake disc" has been in common use in motor racing for decades. When a driver reports a vibration under hard braking, inexperienced crews, after checking for (and not finding) cracks often attribute the vibration to "warped discs". They then measure the disc thickness in various places, find significant variation and the diagnosis is cast in stone.

When disc brakes for high performance cars arrived on the scene we began to hear of "warped brake discs" on road going cars, with the same analyses and diagnoses. Typically, the discs are resurfaced to cure the problem and, equally typically, after a relatively short time the roughness or vibration comes back. Brake roughness has caused a significant number of cars to be bought back by their manufacturers under the "lemon laws". This has been going on for decades now - and, like most things that we have cast in stone, the diagnoses are wrong.

With one qualifier, presuming that the hub and wheel flange are flat and in good condition and that the wheel bolts or hat mounting hardware is in good condition, installed correctly and tightened uniformly and in the correct order to the recommended torque specification, in more than 40 years of professional racing, including the Shelby/Ford GT 40s – one of the most intense brake development program in history - I have never seen a warped brake disc. I have seen lots of cracked discs, (FIGURE 1) discs that had turned into shallow cones at operating temperature because they were mounted rigidly to their attachment bells or top hats, (FIGURE 2) a few where the friction surface had collapsed in the area between straight radial interior vanes, (FIGURE 3) and an untold number of discs with pad material unevenly deposited on the friction surfaces - sometimes visible and more often not. (FIGURE 4)

In fact every case of "warped brake disc" that I have investigated, whether on a racing car or a street car, has turned out to be friction pad material transferred unevenly to the surface of the disc. This uneven deposition results in thickness variation (TV) or run-out due to hot spotting that occurred at elevated temperatures.

(I added the emphasis)

So, unless Pontiac uses some incredibly crappy rotors, I don't think you're actually warping the disk. It's most likely pad material transfer.

For instance, SilverGA, you speed up for the stop sign, slam on the brakes, and come to an ABS-pulsing, screeching halt right at the crosswalk. Your brakes just assumed a lot of heat, and the faster you were going, you were increasing the amount of heat in an exponential relationship (KE = 1/2 mv^2). When you stop at the stop sign, you keep your foot on the brake so you don't roll through while the other cars go through the intersection.

Your pads are baking themselves to the rotor while you keep your foot on the brake. When you release, a very, very thin layer of pad material is left behind - sometimes, it's even visible on the rotor. This minute variation in the thickness of your rotor might get scraped off next time you brake, but if it doesn't, it'll bond with the rotor's material, sometimes permanently.

To prevent it, you have to bed in your brakes, as I said. This helps the pad material evenly distribute across the face of the rotor, and helps prevent the 'warped' feeling. In addition, don't keep your brakes applied if you've just come to a hard stop. For instance, after a hard downhill mountain road run, we'll usually coast for a while, letting the brakes cool, before we come to a stop. Even then, I'll just park the car on a flat surface and not use the parking brake, just to keep the pads from touching the rotors.

Rotors are not made out of steel. They're virtually all cast iron (unless you get something exotic like on Ferarris or Porsches, which is ceramic or carbon or something; or on some motorcycles or karts). Cast iron is a much better heat sink (it can absorb more heat) than steel. It also expands less than steel, and so it retains its shape better than steel.

Allow me to add - I'm by no means an expert, and I am not saying you guys are wrong. I know a bit about Subies, and so I absorb the 'conventional wisdom' of the Subie crowd. I know next to nothing about GA's, so you guys could very well be correct. That's why I'm hanging out here - I'm more than willing to learn and expand my horizons :)

[skateswitch97]

im planning on getting power slot rotors from tire rack, cheapest shipping, on a small note i think cross drilled have a high tendencey of cracking, im just want alittle better performance from my brakes and also the look

[SilverGA2001]

Nope, they warp. :lol: (good reply though :thumbup2: ),GA's are known for it, and the dealers often have them in for this repair. hell, my dealer replaced my rotors 3 times under warranty because of the stock rotors warping. The shop agreed the rotors were warped, and it probably was precipitated by the GM materials. The dealer even said if the car isn't under warranty, they use alternate rotors other then GM's to avoid the warping issues as much. My Powerslots were so out of spec when I took them up to be turned, that the shop did the required work, but they were past the legal allowances. They were full of surface cracks, very visible to the naked eye before they were turned. As soon as you'd tap the pedal, the whole front end of the car shook worse then any other rotor problem I'd ever seen Ask most GA owners here, and you'll probably find that many had warranty work done for warped rotors. I'll stand by Kelly as well, with him having messed around with them himself.

It's odd though, that my 94 Cavalier never had rotor issues, and my '88 Astro hasn't either. I tow with that vehicle, and put a lot of strain on those poor old brakes, but never have warped any rotors. Yet I've seen my dad's 2000 GTP go through 3 sets because of violent shaking, turned twice and replaced once under warranty, the GAGT has had numerous problems, and the most understandable, my '02 Bird has had 2 visits for front rotors causing pulsing (of course, it's got the same rotors as a Bonneville I believe, so eh...).

[VanishingImage]

can vouch for bad stock GA rotors. I work at a Pontiac dealership and THIS IS a common warranty work. We don't see a huge number of them but they come in atleast once or twice a week.

Basically Im looking for something thats good as normal rotors but that also has some apprence to it and not just plain jane looking.

Curious tho,don't high end performance cars come stock with either cross drilled or slotted rotors?

[Foxy]

Hmm, if you guys say so. It astounds me that Pontiac could get away with passing off such awful crap, though. Like I said, brake warping is pretty much non-existant in the Subie world.

My wife's Grand Am has aftermarket rotors - I have no clue of the type, as she had the swap done before I met her. No vibrations or shuddering on braking, and they still look good.

Porsches and Ferarris and Lambos do come with cross-drilled rotors, but they are high-end for a reason (carbon ceramic material, holes cast in rather than drilled afterward..). Those brakes are a hefty chunk of change, much more than $41/rotor. The Porsche ones are about $17k for the parts, $23k if you have them installed...

WRC cars tend to use slotted rotors..

[Foxy]

I was distracted at work and looked it up.. Looks like there is a TSB on front brake rotors:
43. SERVICE BRAKES, HYDRAULIC Bulletin Number: 000523002B
Bulletin Date: MAR 2003

Vehicle: 2000 Pontiac Grand Am
Summary:
FRONT DISC BRAKE PULSATION. *TT



Not terribly informative, though :) Another article states that "TSB 00-05-23-002 (Feb 2000) covers front disc brake pulsation on 1997-'00 Chevy Malibu, '97-'99 Olds Cutlass, '99-'00 Olds Alero and '99-'00 Pontiac Grand Am. The pulsation is due to unevenly worn rotors, which is caused by aggressive pads that accelerate rotor wear. The fix is to replace the rotors, pads and hubs."

Another quote: "Heavily corroded rotors cause about 30% of brake pedal pulsations. The rest are due to distorted or wobbling rotors, which causes uneven wear and variations in rotor thickness. This can develop in 3,000 to 7,000 miles following a brake job. The cure, says GM, is to resurface the rotors on the car using an on-car lathe, or to measure rotor runout on the hub and correct as needed by installing a tapered shim behind the rotor and/or indexing the rotor to minimize runout. TSB 01-05-23-001 (Feb 2001) covers the "Brake Align" system for correcting rotor runout using a tapered shim behind the rotor. More than .003 in. of rotor runout will usually cause problems on most cars."

Personally, looking from that, it looks like that either the rotors rust, or the rotors are not sitting correctly on the hubs. If they're not perpendicular to the pads, then the pads aren't contacting them correctly, causing the rotors to wear unevenly, which will lead to problems.

In my humble opinion, resurfacing a wobbly rotor is fixing the symptoms and not the disease. It seems like that the rotor/hub interface needs to be improved..

This would explain the problem if the stock rotors are so bad, why would Powerslots also 'warp'? Those are decent rotors - I wouldn't use them on a track-only car, but they are more than capable of taking the occasional HDPE or spirited run.

How hard are you guys torquing down your wheels?

Another interesting note from the article (it was a "Big 3" meeting to talk about brakes) said, "Mercedes is also using drilled and slotted rotors on some of its high performance models. The Chrysler engineers said they don't offer a significant improvement in cooling compared to a standard rotor, and are used primarily to enhance the "racing image" of the vehicle."

[SilverGA2001]

I used to have a pic of what my powerslots looked like after i took them off... cracks and all. Posted it here once, but now I can't find it. :???: Ah well.

[DontPassTheFence]

Man, I guess I should consider myself lucky, my stock rotors have shown no signs of warping yet, and I brake from 80-90 to about 30-40 on the freeway; I also trail brake (while holding the gas down) on long sloping off ramps (I got to 90mph once on the banked clover-leaf on-ramp; and for anyone who has seen a typical clover exchange on a freeway knows that its FUN going 90 around those things when there is not a single car on the road with you :D )

I beat up my brakes daily, and yet they have held fast and strong (I am even using cheapo pads from autozone; ValueCraft I think they are called. I bought them just to test how bad cheap pads were. Ive got to say they arent too too bad for braking stability, but they fade quicker than normal, have 3 times as much brake dust as Ive seen with any other pad, and they squeak a bit, which is sometimes annoying. Next time Ill buy some good ceramic pads, or maybe get the powerslots and some ceramics.

[DontPassTheFence]

Originally posted by Foxy

How hard are you guys torquing down your wheels?


Id hope it was to factory specs; 100ft/lbs IIRC.

[ga5speed02]

i say slotted, you will get more breaking surface.

[VanishingImage]

I think I'll just go slotted. Haven't seen or read much about cross drilled rotors. I'll just have to go all out on the calipers,make them nice and glossy:D

I did find tho, Brembo makes both slotted and cross-drilled rotors,they are a very well known brake systems company.

[99GrandAMSE]

Foxy ... I respect you for you ability to post an extremely diplomatic reply :) ... unfortunately, the problem with the factory GM rotors (according to what I have read and been told) is they decided originally to use "soft" cast iron rotors and "hard" pads for one reason or another and then, after all the problems, went to a "harder" rotor and a "softer" pad combination ... I think it is probably more a matter of the material of construction then it is using them hard or easy, if you understand my meaning ... it is possible and most certainly probable the Subie came with "better quality steel rotors" so they obviously would withstand more abuse :)

[Foxy]

Kelly,

No problem on the diplomatic replies. I really like how civil this forum is. One of the largest Subie forums is a treasure trove of technical information, but everyone there acts like a complete ass to everyone else. It's just not worthwhile to be so rude, in my opinon.

I think you're right on the rotor/pad compounds. I was googling around a bit, and I read some articles about the Grand Am's brakes that support what you're saying. Stinks for you guys, though!

The Subies use cast iron brakes, just like everyone else.. the 02-05 calipers were sort of wimpy, but the 06 ones are nice and beefy, and I think they made the rotors larger, too.

Question - if the bolt pattern is the same (say, 5x100), do rotors from other cars bolt up, or is there some issues with how the rotors mate to the hubs? I know a bit of theory, but not much practice, so forgive the stupid question.

VanishingImage, Brembo makes cross-drilled rotors because they look neat and people will buy them. From a business perspective, it's silly to ignore a large portion of your potential customer base. Most users won't stress the rotors hard enough to show the weakness of the cross-drilled design.

But look at race vehicles. WRC cars (http://www.kosunenracing.com/images/ga3.jpg) use slotted rotors. ALMS race cars (http://a6world.schwanks.com/alms/laguna2004/slides/cts_v_brake_ducts.jpg) use slotted rotors. JGTC race cars (http://racing.jbskyline.net/2001/Gallery/Bilder/2001%20JGTC%20Xanavi%20Xanavi%20brake%20discs.jpg) use slotted rotors. Almost invariably, when I see a race car's brakes, they're slotted or plain (F1, noticably) - not cross drilled. There's probably a reason for that :)

Of course, they're racing and putting hard use on your brakes. If you don't - just drive on the street sanely - cross drilled rotors will probably work alright, assuming you get decently made ones.

[Azrael]

I can vouch for the powerslot slotted and dimpled rotors. After one year of mild and occasional aggressive braking they're still as good as the day I got them. The dimples give the look of crossdrilled while maintaining the integrity of the rotor. Although they're not recommended for autocross because of them. The normal powerslots, however, are.

[SilverGA2001]

Originally posted by Foxy
The Subies use cast iron brakes, just like everyone else.. the 02-05 calipers were sort of wimpy, but the 06 ones are nice and beefy, and I think they made the rotors larger, too.

Question - if the bolt pattern is the same (say, 5x100), do rotors from other cars bolt up, or is there some issues with how the rotors mate to the hubs? I know a bit of theory, but not much practice, so forgive the stupid question.

VanishingImage, Brembo makes cross-drilled rotors because they look neat and people will buy them. From a business perspective, it's silly to ignore a large portion of your potential customer base. Most users won't stress the rotors hard enough to show the weakness of the cross-drilled design.

Don't get me started on the GA calipers. :roll2:

To answer your question about the rotors bolting up... example. My dad's 2000 GTP has the same bolt pattern, and the same diameter rotors (11.9 IIRC) up front as my GA, but his are wider, and won't work on our cars (the beautiful part is we have the same rear rotors!). Holding them next to each other after putting Brembo replacements on his GTP, his looked about a half inch wider through the venting section. The only cars that would fit our cars are probably the other N body cars, like the Malibu, definitely the Oldsmobile Alero, and Cutlass I believe is listed as having used them too.

Brembo doesn't make slotted or cross drilled rotors for the GA's (despite Ebay scam artists claims of "quality Brembo factory rotors"). They do make plain jane replacements for them, but it seems they left us out for the interesting items. The GP's do have slotted and crossdrilled rotor styles available though.

[VanishingImage]

Originally posted by SilverGA2001
Don't get me started on the GA calipers. :roll2:

To answer your question about the rotors bolting up... example. My dad's 2000 GTP has the same bolt pattern, and the same diameter rotors (11.9 IIRC) up front as my GA, but his are wider, and won't work on our cars (the beautiful part is we have the same rear rotors!). Holding them next to each other after putting Brembo replacements on his GTP, his looked about a half inch wider through the venting section. The only cars that would fit our cars are probably the other N body cars, like the Malibu, definitely the Oldsmobile Alero, and Cutlass I believe is listed as having used them too.

Brembo doesn't make slotted or cross drilled rotors for the GA's (despite Ebay scam artists claims of "quality Brembo factory rotors"). They do make plain jane replacements for them, but it seems they left us out for the interesting items. The GP's do have slotted and crossdrilled rotor styles available though.

Brembo does make Cross-drilled and Slotted rotors for the GA. Check out Tire Rack,they sell them,144 bucks for either and its a set,both front rotors.

Heres a link to ALL rotors and pads Tire Rack sells,this is for my year,dunno about the other year GA's

Brembo Cross-drilled (http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/brakes.jsp?&make=Brembo&model=Sport+Drilled+Rotor&group=Sport+Drilled+Rotor&autoMake=Pontiac&autoModel=Grand+Am+Coupe&autoYear=1997&autoModClar=&perfCode=S)

Brembo Slotted (http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/brakes.jsp?&make=Brembo&model=Sport+Slotted+Rotor&group=Sport+Slotted+Rotor&autoMake=Pontiac&autoModel=Grand+Am+Coupe&autoYear=1997&autoModClar=&perfCode=S)

look over to the right side,grey box,says 1997 Grand Am

[SilverGA2001]

Originally posted by VanishingImage
Brembo does make Cross-drilled and Slotted rotors for the GA. Check out Tire Rack,they sell them,144 bucks for either and its a set,both front rotors.

Heres a link to ALL rotors and pads Tire Rack sells,this is for my year,dunno about the other year GA's


look over to the right side,grey box,says 1997 Grand Am

Kinda f*cked up. I didn't realize that there were Brembo's for the earlier GA. Search 99+ though, and you'll find out they don't sell anything other then Brembo replacements. :(

[Azrael]

I'm not surprised the older GAs have more aftermarket brake equipment. We share the same brake components with J-bodies (sunfires and cavaliers).

[GrandAmSSE]

How hard is it to bleed the brakes on an ABS system? Never did brakes with ABS before.

[Pte Socks]

Ok, heres my 2 cents. Dont bother with cross drilled. Inexpensive ones are regular rotors with holes drilled in them which leads to stress fractures and cracked rotors. Expensive ones are good, but are better known for good looks in aftermarket applications than anything else ( though as mentioned, there are reason for them in high end cars). I did notice with my powerslots, that I get better braking out of them and I would recommend them to anyone. They tend to remove more of the pad dust away and thus are less likely to warp them. As for the stockers, I had stock rotors on my car and they worked perfectly fine for the 50,000 kms or so, that I had them. If your looking to upgrade, either go with better flat face or slotted rotors. However, upgrade your pads as a first priority, as they will make the most difference in stopping feel and distance, though usually at a cost of dust or sound, agian, my hawk HPS are what id recommend. As a side note, one thing id recommend is listening to people who have different things before you yourself actually go out and buy them. Id learned a ton of things on this site, especially about different products.

[Foxy]

Originally posted by GrandAmSSE
How hard is it to bleed the brakes on an ABS system? Never did brakes with ABS before.

For most cars, it's done exactly the same as a non-ABS equipped car.

On some ABS equipped cars, though, the ABS system has a spare 'reservoir' of brake fluid that is kept separate from the main supply. This reservoir is only used when the ABS is activated. So if you bleed the brakes normally and never engage ABS, you don't have to really worry about it. However, the first time you hit ABS, it'll dump the old fluid in with the new. Hmm.

There's a special dealer tool you can use to force the ABS to dump the reservoir when bleeding it. However, like I said, it's special, and probably not worth buying it. The cheap way is to completely flush out the old brake fluid, go out, get up to speed, and hit your brakes hard enough to induce ABS, then come back and reflush.

Or, if you flush your brakes once a year, and occasionally hit ABS in order to cycle fluid through, it doesn't really matter.

It's hard to say if your ABS has a reservoir or not, as there's so many different systems and versions of systems. Call your service manager and ask how to flush the brakes after replacing the ABS module. If they mention that you need to cycle the ABS, then you probably have the reservoir.

['96GAGT]

Why not stick with some regular ones paint your calipers... simple as that! I'd like to paint mine.

[VanishingImage]

from what Ive been reading on either slotted or cross-drilled is that if you do a lot of hard braking,in which causes real high heat temps then you shouldn't use either. Im pretty good with using the brakes,I gently apply them and rarely slam and hold down on the brake pedal. Ive NEVER had a warped stock rotor or factory rotor. I do buy the cheapy pads tho so I do have to change them once a year it seems. I figure if I go with name brand stuff(tend to be pricey) because you get what you pay for in the automotive field it seems.

[96GreenGaGT]

what about rear disc brake conversion? on my grand am gt... you'd figured they give you rear disc brakes with the gt version right? well i guess with the 96-98 you don't have that option. so i want to put disc brakes on the back... since we all know that drums aren't all that good for brakeing... just the manufacturers way of saving money with mass production.

so anyone have any ideas? somebody mentioned earlier on the first page that we have the same brake setup as the j-body cars? if so could you just go to a junk yard and pick up a set of rear brakes with all the fitings and then bolt it on?

[VanishingImage]

there are rear disc conversion kits but I think they are only big brake kits,not the same size as your stock front rotors. 800+ bucks for the kit

[VanishingImage]

so anyone have any ideas? somebody mentioned earlier on the first page that we have the same brake setup as the j-body cars? if so could you just go to a junk yard and pick up a set of rear brakes with all the fitings and then bolt it on?

J-bodies have a different rear end setup then the N-bodies. Some of the stuff might bolt up but mounting them,you will have to fab up stuff to make them work

[PontiacGT]

So what is the overall vote on powerslot and brembo performance? I might have to grab some new rotors soon so I'm also wondering. I'd go slotted myself, so powerslot or brembo...

[VanishingImage]

lot of people say they like the power slots, haven't heard anyone with Brembo stuff yet. But for 140 bucks you get 2 rotors with zinc coating(keeps from rusting) and are either slotted or cross-drilled

[Foxy]

How hard are you pushing your brakes?

I went from the OEM Brembo brakes to Powerslots on my STi, mainly because four Powerslots cost less than two Brembos. They've worked well so far; two weeks until I take it to the track and really find out.. but for spirited mountain runs, they work great.

[PontiacGT]

Ok...Yeah I usually don't push them SUPER hard, but some days I just want to go and I'll hit her hard from 105-75 or so. I don't need racing quality of course.

[Foxy]

Powerslots should be more than sufficient for that then. I'd save the money.

[PontiacGT]

Thanks. Any advice for brake pads? I hear ceramic seems to be the way to go. I bought a cheap set of brake pads the last time.

[VanishingImage]

Well with the 96-98 Grand Am's,we only have front disc brakes so either way,theres only 20 bucks difference total, Brembo 140, PowerSlot are usually around 60 or so if you find them that low,so around 120 for both.

Either way,both are good named brands,doubt you can go wrong.

More then half the time the brakes are not going to be getting hot enough to do any damage unless you do nothing but race all the time,which I don't. The only time I race is at the drag strip and that seems to be dying down some with my milage going up.

[Foxy]

If you get Powerslots, I guess they formulate the iron in the rotor to work well with Hawk's pads. They make Hawk HPS pads for your application (I think - verify!) (http://www.hawkperformance.com/parts/search.php?year=1997&make=PONTIAC&model=GRAND+AM&show_street=yes&Submit=Find+Parts+%3E%3E). I am very pleased with my HPS's. EBC Redstuff (http://www.racepages.com/performance/basket.php?makeid=22&modelid=244&year=1997&partid=12&brandid=1169) pads are also pretty good if they're the new formulation.

[MantaGreen97]

Originally posted by Foxy
On some ABS equipped cars, though, the ABS system has a spare 'reservoir' of brake fluid that is kept separate from the main supply. This reservoir is only used when the ABS is activated. So if you bleed the brakes normally and never engage ABS, you don't have to really worry about it. However, the first time you hit ABS, it'll dump the old fluid in with the new. Hmm.
...
It's hard to say if your ABS has a reservoir or not, as there's so many different systems and versions of systems.

The above mention of the reservoir is only true for high-pressure ABS systems, which are by-and-large outdated for normal cars, though I believe Honda might still be using high-pressure ABS, lol :roll2:

But yes there are many different ABS designs out there and I guess maybe some low-pressure systems have a reservior (though I'm not imagining how they would need one)...

In a high-pressure ABS system, the separate reservior is maintained, pressurised by a canister that holds pressure and presumably a compressor motor somewhere. When ABS is required the high-pressure fluid is delivered to provide ABS action.

In a low-pressure ABS system, there is typically no reservior and instead of maintaining fluid under pressure, ABS pump motor(s) are used to instantaneously create fluid pressure when ABS is required.

Low pressure ABS is in most modern GM cars (and all GAs with ABS).

When servicing the brakes, all that is required is a simple motor re-home operation. Motor re-homing is performed directly by a Tech 2 but can be user-performed provided there the ABS light is not on and there are no ABS/TC DTCs set. All you do is start the car, let it run a few seconds, shut it off and repeat that one more time.

Without access to a Tech 2 you can't run the pump motors so in doing a brake flush you may end up with a small amount of [old] fluid left in the ABS motorpacks but that shouldn't be anything to worry about unless you're flushing a system that has been seriously contaminated somehow.

As for drilled rotors, I've been through a few sets of rotors on my car.

Other than the stock rotors, I've had the good ol' RotoTechs on my car (some of the first drilled & slotted rotors available for this braking system, at low cost). Those were fine when new but not that great over time. They weren't plated so they rusted quickly; eventually the slots actually wore off the rotors. Still the RotoTechs were made in Canada and not bad--certainly better than the Mexico/Brazil/China/etc. super cheapo rotors.

Replaced those with PowerStop drilled rotors with gold cadmium plating. Those rotors were very good but one developed a very slight warpage after a while (can happen to any rotor really especially on this 1980s braking system, lol). The rotor on that one side then ate through pads like crazy though gave no indication otherwise of a problem (no pulsation like usual with a warped rotor).

Pulled those off last winter and replaced them with cheapo made in China normal rotors for the winter. I'll be replacing the rotors with PowerStop drilled again in just a week or two now that it is warm, as I was quite satisfied with the performance of the PowerStop rotors.

Anyway on both sets of drilled rotors (both the cheapy rototechs and the PowerStops) never a single crack anywhere. Though there seem to be a lot of comments about drilled rotors cracking, I wonder how many people have actually had this happen or are just going off "stereotypes"? In my experience drilled rotors have been fine.

[Foxy]

Re: Cracked X-drilled rotors

Most people don't push them hard enough where it'll be a problem (especially on the streets). I tend to read more of the track-oriented equipment threads, and several of those guys have had cracked x-drilled rotors (you can see one here (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=585397), here (http://www.superchargersonline.com/content.asp?id=98), and here (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=546431)). So, keep in mind my mindset when you read my posts :)

Improperly slotted rotors crack, too, and even blank-faced ones can crack if subjected to enough stress. It's just that it's much more likely to do so with cheaply-made x-drilled rotors (which is what most people here are buying).

If you want to buy me a set of x-drilled rotors, I'll gladly show you some cracks ;)

[VanishingImage]

Im running some Morse ceramic pads. These definately seem to have more bite then the metallics. No noise, no dust so far, just road dirt. Plan on getting some slotted rotors from PowerSlot at some point.

[DontPassTheFence]

I need to look into Ceramic pads since these cheap-assed autozone pads mess up my rims everyday :(

How much for a set of Morse ceramics?

(Id like to run the ceramics on my stock rotors after resurfacing them, or MAYBE buying some powerslots)

[VanishingImage]

the Friction Master/Morse pads ran me 42 bucks from Adavnce Auto Parts, don't bother with AutoZone.

Before I installed the ceramics I checked my rotors for run out and any abnormal wear,they were fine. Actually, a rotor that has been used,but still within specs,is better to use then a machined rotor. A machined rotor will have high points causing a pulse in the pedal. A smooth rotor will have better response then a machinced rotor will. Yea, a machined rotor will give you a clean surface BUT for so many miles you will have some noise and possibly some pulsation in the pedal.

Im running some China 15 dollar blanks and have had no problems with them. If the pads eat the rotor up hell I won't mind buying 15 buck rotors. I have NEVER had a problem with rotors/pads,typically do good braking. Don't tailgate or do hard stops when not needed.

[ancona46]

r1 conecpts are good i just got the drilled and slotted and wow what a difference and theyre cheap too i paid like 175 shipped for 4 rotors off ebay

[AAS SC/T]

grand am/prix rotors are cheap the rust easy and if you want to call it warp then that too. I changed mine to R1 racing concepts cross drilled/slotted rotors with silver zinc coating and new ceramic performance pads on and they stop awesome and no rust.

[PontiacGT]

Right, so I've been driving pretty hard around the mountain (yeah...more like a big hill) but I wore the shit out of my brakes so I want to upgrade asap. I'm done with college on friday so I want to have this stuff waiting for me when I get home.



So, if I go to Tire Rack (http://www.tirerack.com) and order the PowerSlot Slotted Rotors (http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/brakes.jsp?&make=PowerSlot&model=Power+Slot+Rotor&group=Power+Slot+Rotor&autoMake=Pontiac&autoModel=Grand+Am+GT+Coupe&autoYear=1997&autoModClar=&perfCode=A), then go to Advance Auto Parts (http://www.advanceautoparts.com/) and get the Friction Master (http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?mfrcode=FRM&mfrpartnumber=CMX506&parttype=219&ptset=A) front pads, I should be ok?

Question, those pads ^, do they make front and rears? I need rear brakes BAD...maybe the brand on those are less important.


Yeah, so figuring $134 for the rotors (67x2) plus ~$42 for the pads, I'm up to $174 already. Figure in some rear pads I'm a bit higher. Sounds like a plan?



Q: Do the Goodridge G-Stop (http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/brakes.jsp?&make=Goodridge&model=G-Stop+Brakeline+Kit&group=G-Stop+Brakeline+Kit&autoMake=Pontiac&autoModel=Grand+Am+GT+Coupe&autoYear=1997&autoModClar=&perfCode=S) performance brake lines make that much of a difference to where they are worth $108?

[ancona46]

should work ok i have r1 concepts with some duralast semi mets and its fine

[Foxy]

May I suggest Hawk HPS pads for the front, at least? Powerslot and Hawk work together and formulate their respective products for each other. Hawk HPS are pricier, but they're nice high performance street pads.

Stainless steel brake lines are more of a feel mod than anything. Does your pedal feel 'soft' and 'squishy' when you jam on them? If so, SS lines might help alleviate that to a point. I have them on my car, and noticed a slightly stiffer pedal, which was nice. If you want to shop around, Goodridge makes SS lines that have a plastic coating over the SS braid. The idea behind that is that it'll help prevent debris from getting between the SS and the inner teflon, which could rub and cause a failure. However, I know some rally teams who have run the same set of standard (non-coated) SS lines through a few years of rallies, and have experienced no failures, so it's probably not entirely necessary.

[PontiacGT]

Ok, about the Hawk pads, that site you linked doesn't show price, and I can't find a store near me that sells them. Where can I find them online?

[Foxy]

Hawk's website (http://www.hawkperformance.com/performance/hps.php) has a "Find Vendor" feature (look on the left about halfway down). Google (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Hawk+HPS+HB390F.602&btnG=Google+Search) also returns hits.

Note that Hawk HPS pads only seem to be available for your front brakes - but that's alright; your fronts do most of the braking anyways.

[PontiacGT]

^that's true, and I found a vendor but it's like 96 miles away from my house, lol.


I was reading the other thread about brakes too and how the Hawks have a lot of dust (or so some say)...I dunno.

[Foxy]

They probably dust more than the stockers on GAGT's. But honestly, they are not that bad in day-to-day driving. When I beat on them hard on the track, they did turn my wheel fairly black. But the HPS's during daily driving are really not that bad. I haven't washed my car in about three weeks (it rains nearly every day for just long enough to make a car dirty again), and my wheels still look fairly gold.

[PontiacGT]

I found some to fit my car on Ebay, $58 bucks shipped.

Hawks (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HAWK-BRAKE-PADS-91-98-PONTIAC-GRAND-AM-HB390F602_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33567QQitemZ8 063299883QQrdZ1)

# 8063299883

Look good?

[Foxy]

Those appear to be the correct ones!

[VanishingImage]

Im happy with the Morse Ceramics I got a couple weeks ago. Very low dust and quiet as hell,no noise what so ever.

[Foxy]

Oh - when you get the Hawk pads in, read this I wrote about breaking in your brakes:
http://www.gaownersclub.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58400

[PontiacGT]

wow.....^good to know. Sounds like a pain but makes perfect sense.

[PontiacGT]

Hey, I ordered the Hawk pads already, and I'm on to rotors.

Basically, it would cost me $150+ from tirerack.

I found a site that is much cheaper than tirerack. It's $61.82 per disc after you add it to the cart (making it $123.64) with free ground shipping.

Will you double check to see that these are the same rotors and all is legit and good to go, because that would save a lot of cash...

Car-Stuff (www.car-stuff.com)


Edit: I've been looking around on this site, pretty much EVERYTHING here is cheaper than tirerack PLUS free shipping for orders over 50....so I ought to get my suspension stuff here too...

[Foxy]

Those should be correct (Part numbers 8234 PSL & 8234 PSR, the front left and front right rotors respectively), but those are only for the front. It doesn't appear that Powerslot makes rear rotors for your car :(

[PontiacGT]

That's fine...I have drums in the back! that's how 96-98 GA's are made. I think I'll buy those rotors from that website then, I'm glad I looked before just going to tirerack.