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Foxy
02-06-2006, 10:28 PM
Brake FAQ

This post is intended to be a summary of what I’ve learned about braking systems. I’m by no means an expert, and I know next to nothing about the specifics of the Grand Am’s braking system. This information is more general in nature, and should apply to any car.

If you notice anything wrong, please feel free to let me know, and I’ll correct this post. I’m a noob as far as cars go, so I really don’t mind being told I’m wrong. With that said, let’s dive in!

Brakes 101

If you don’t want to read my labored description, check out How Stuff Works (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/brake.htm). That’s a must-bookmark for anyone interested in a car.

The brake system in your car slows you down by converting the kinetic (motion) energy of your vehicle into heat. The amount of heat generated by the car is determined by the amount of energy in the system.

Kinetic Energy = ½ * mass * velocity^2

Therefore, if you double your speed, you quadruple the amount of heat generated. This is important to keep in mind.

The major heat sink in the system are the rotors (80% of the heat generated is dissipated through the rotors). However, the pads, fluids, wheels, hubs, bearings, and rubber gaskets in your braking system also absorb, and are susceptible to heat damage.

Imagine your brake system as a sink. When you brake, you turn on the faucet and begin to fill up the sink. Water drains out of the sink at a given rate through the drain at the bottom. If you brake harder or more frequently, you turn the faucet on more and more, so that more water (heat) enters the system. If you get too much water in the sink, the sink will overflow. If you get too much heat into the brakes before it can dissipate or drain the heat, you will get fade.

When you get brake fade, your pedal will become noticeably mushy, and braking distance will begin to increase. We’ll go into more detail about fade soon.

Your brakes do not stop your car. Your tires are what actually stops your car – the brakes only slow the rotation of the tires. The tires are what creates the friction patch between your car and the road. In order to actually shorten braking distance, you need wider, stickier tires. A good alignment might help keep the tires firmly squared to the road. When manufacturers quote stopping distance, this is a single stop from the given speed. Better brake systems are capable of maintaining that stopping distance over multiple stops (they are either larger sinks, or have larger drains, to go back to the sink/water analogy). If your current brakes can lock up the tires (activate ABS), you’re achieving about the minimum braking distance with your current tires.

Brake Rotors

#1 myth – brake rotors warp. No, they don’t!

Let me just quote from Stoptech:
Myth # 1 – BRAKE JUDDER AND VIBRATION IS CAUSED BY DISCS THAT HAVE BEEN WARPED FROM EXESSIVE HEAT.

The term "warped brake disc" has been in common use in motor racing for decades. When a driver reports a vibration under hard braking, inexperienced crews, after checking for (and not finding) cracks often attribute the vibration to "warped discs". They then measure the disc thickness in various places, find significant variation and the diagnosis is cast in stone.
When disc brakes for high performance cars arrived on the scene we began to hear of "warped brake discs" on road going cars, with the same analyses and diagnoses. Typically, the discs are resurfaced to cure the problem and, equally typically, after a relatively short time the roughness or vibration comes back. Brake roughness has caused a significant number of cars to be bought back by their manufacturers under the "lemon laws". This has been going on for decades now - and, like most things that we have cast in stone, the diagnoses are wrong.
With one qualifier, presuming that the hub and wheel flange are flat and in good condition and that the wheel bolts or hat mounting hardware is in good condition, installed correctly and tightened uniformly and in the correct order to the recommended torque specification, in more than 40 years of professional racing, including the Shelby/Ford GT 40s – one of the most intense brake development program in history - I have never seen a warped brake disc. I have seen lots of cracked discs, discs that had turned into shallow cones at operating temperature because they were mounted rigidly to their attachment bells or top hats, a few where the friction surface had collapsed in the area between straight radial interior vanes, and an untold number of discs with pad material unevenly deposited on the friction surfaces - sometimes visible and more often not.
In fact every case of "warped brake disc" that I have investigated, whether on a racing car or a street car, has turned out to be friction pad material transferred unevenly to the surface of the disc. This uneven deposition results in thickness variation (TV) or run-out due to hot spotting that occurred at elevated temperatures.


I've been told that Pontiac uses some really crappy rotors that are prone to actually warping. I'm not completely convinced, personally..

Brake Fluid

Your brakes are a hydraulic system. To oversimplify, when you press on the brakes, you press fluid through lines that actuate calipers that squeeze your rotors. Hydraulic systems work on the principle that the fluid is incompressible – when you make a motion on one side of the system, you get a similar motion on the other side.

So, brake fluid is the hydraulic fluid in the system. The fluids are designed to absorb heat and not lose their resistance to compressing. If you get fluid too hot, it will boil. When fluid boils, small bubbles of air form. Air is highly compressible, and the hydraulic system won’t be so.. hydraulic. Therefore, boiling fluid is bad – it makes your pedal feel mushy.

Fluids are classified into different types – DOT 3, DOT 4, DOT 5, and DOT 5.1 – depending on their boiling points. Boiling points are divided into Dry Boiling Points and Wet Boiling Points.

DOT 3, 4, and 5.1 are all compatible with each other, and have progressively higher boiling points. All of these fluids are highly corrosive to paint – don’t spill any on your car! DOT 5 is a silicon-based fluid and will not absorb water. It is also paint-friendly. However, silicon compresses easily. In addition, silicon fluid tends to froth when shaken, introducing air into the system. For this reason, DOT 5 fluid is not really recommended for street cars (it was developed for military / industrial applications where brake pedal feel is not critical). Show cars may want to use it, due to the fact that it won’t harm paint if spilled.

The Dry Boiling Point is the temperature where the fluid will boil when it is fresh and new. However, DOT 3, 4, and 5.1 fluids are hydroscopic – they absorb water. Water boils at 212 degrees F, and so, the absorption of any water will lower the fluid’s boiling point. All fluid will absorb water once it is out of the bottle. No brake system is completely impervious to water, and within a few weeks to a month, most fluids will be considered ‘wet.’ Therefore, Wet Boiling Point is the important feature to look at when purchasing fluid. Wet Boiling Point is the temperature that the fluid will boil at when it contains 3% water.

Also, be sure to flush your fluid once a year. Fluid will keep absorbing water past the 3% mark, and will progressively get worse. Also, if you do boil your fluid after a particularly spirited run, change it. Once the fluid boils, its boiling point is tremendously lowered, in addition to all of the little air bubbles now in the system.

Brake Fluid Boiling Points (determined by looking at the bottles, but I stole the list):

Fluid Brand || Wet Boiling Point || Dry Boiling Point
Castrol SRF || 518°F || 590°F
Earl's HyperTemp 421 || 421°F || 585°F
Motul 600 || 420°F || 593°F
AP-600 || 410°F || 572°F
Neosynthetic 610 || 421°F || 610°F
ATE-Super Blue || 392°F || 536°F
Valvoline || 333°F || 513°F
Castrol LMA || 311°F || 446°F
Earl's HyperTemp 300 || 300°F || 568°F
Ford HD || 290°F || 550°F
Wilwood 570 || 284°F || 570°F
PFC-Z rated || 284°F || 550°F
AP-550 || 284°F || 550°F


Castrol SRF looks like the best stuff, but you’ll pay for it. It’s something like $75/pint. Most of the other fluids are closer to $5-$10/pint. It’s mainly used by racing teams who can afford, and need the best. Motul 600 or Superblue is inexpensive, and available in many places (motorcycle shops tend to carry good brake fluid).

Foxy
02-06-2006, 10:29 PM
Questions and Answers:

What Big Brake Kit (BBK) should I get???

One from any reputable manufacturer of brake systems. I’m not sure who the favored manufacturers are for the Pontiac world, but for the Subaru world, StopTech (http://www.stoptech.com), AP Racing (http://www.apracing.com/), and Wilwood (http://www.wilwood.com/INDEX.ASP) have good reputations. Of course, the STi brake system is by Brembo (http://www.brembo.com/ENG/).

But, before you run off to empty your wallet on a BBK, you should ask yourself – why do I want a BBK? Do you take your car to the track? Are you experiencing fade on the street (if so – slow down!). Is your brake pedal mushy and un-aweinspiring? Or did you just upgrade your wheel size and your stock brakes look puny?

Most people do not need a BBK. The purpose of a BBK is to absorb more heat before fade sets in.

Dude, I upgraded to a BBK, and I swear I stop like 50 feet shorter!

In the braking industry, chopping off six feet from the braking distance is a huge deal, all other things being equal. What most likely happened is that your new brake kit came with brand new rotors, pads, and fluid, and perhaps even stainless steel brake lines. Your pedal is much firmer now, and with the confidence inspired by knowing that you just emptied your wallet to the tune of $1500 - $2000, you are pushing harder on the brakes. The new pads may also have more initial bite, which increases the sensation that you’re braking harder. But in the end, your stopping distance will be about the same. Maybe a few feet longer (ABS systems are carefully tuned, and changing components may mess with the system, or the BBK was designed more for looks than for actual performance, and shifted brake balance too far forward), or maybe a few feet shorter (congrats!). But it’s not going to be 50 feet shorter.

So what can I do to improve my brake pedal feel besides getting all new brakes?
There are many sources of brake mushiness / pedal travel. The ones that are easiest to fix are the brake fluid, the brake lines, and the brake pads.

We’ve already discussed brake fluid. But it is worthwhile to reiterate that old fluid (greater than one year, or fluid that’s already been boiled) is highly compressible and therefore leads to mushy brakes.

Factory brake lines are generally made out of rubber surrounding a PFTE core. This PFTE core resists the corrosive brake fluid, but it, and the rubber, is pretty stretchy. When you press on the brake, you increase the pressure in the system, and your brake lines will expand, expending some of the force in stretching the lines rather than squeezing your brakes.

Aftermarket manufacturers make lines that are surrounded by a braided stainless steel mesh. This stainless steel mesh resists expanding, so almost all of the force of your foot on the pedal goes to the brakes rather than being wasted on the hoses. Stainless steel lines can greatly firm up the brake pedal (but it won’t help shorten braking distance!).

Some things to note – stainless steel braid is very abrasive. If you do install it, make sure to route them so that they will not abrade through anything on your car. Test the car with the wheels turned to full lock and at full droop (lift the car and let the wheels hang). Also, some lines come with a clear plastic coating. This helps prevent debris from getting under the steel braid and abrading through the inside rubber line. If your lines don’t have the coating, check your lines once a month for signs of abrading. A broken brake line is not fun!

Finally, make sure to get a set from a reputable vendor. Brakes are very important, and you don’t want to crash your car and hurt yourself just to save a few bucks on some Ebay knockoff.

Finally, pads. We’ve already discussed pads. As I’ve said before, no-name pads that you get at a cheap brake job are no-name for a reason. The pad material can be very spongy, which makes for a mushy brake pedal. Spend the money on decent pads, and you will be happier in the long run.

Other factors that play into a mushy brake pedal can include weak calipers (force that should be spent in braking actually is wasted on spreading the calipers), brake pad backing plate, and slack in the brake assembly itself. However, these are harder / costlier to fix. Most people will find good results simply from flushing the fluid, getting stainless steel lines, and upgrading their pads (in that order).

These XYZ pads are used by my favorite racing team, so they should be good for me, right?

Again, look at your application. Pads are designed to work within a certain operating temperature range. Racing pads are designed to work at high temperatures (like up to 1800 degrees F!). However, they won’t work when they are cold (below a few hundred degrees). Racers need to take some warm-up laps to get some heat into the brakes before they’ll bite properly.

Street pads are designed to bite well the first time, no matter their temperature. This is vital if you live where it gets cold. If you get racing pads and try to brake in a snowstorm, it’s likely you’ll just keep on sailing.

Current brake technology cannot make a pad that will work great in all conditions. Stoptech said:
The fact of the matter is that current friction technology cannot create a pad that:
1. Is totally silent. (Think of the reputation a noisy pad gets on a message board)
2. Doesn't dust. (Think of the reputation that a dusty pad gets on a message board)
3. Has good cold friction. (Think of the lawyers coming to take away your house because the pad you sold as a street pad didn't stop Joe's car first thing in the morning and he plowed into a mother pushing her twins across the street)
4. Is easy on rotors.
5. Leaves rotors perfectly smooth and mirror-polished.
6. Has good pad life.
7. Does not require the "customer service nightmare inducing" bed-in process.
8. Has a stable torque curve.
9. Fades gradually rather than torque falling off quickly(mid-stop).
10. Has good release and modulation characteristics.
11. Has an MOT that will allow aggressive track use.
12. Does not deposit uneven pad material when overheated.
13. Isn't too expensive.
14. Is available in your pad shape.

Look around at people who are doing similar things to you (street only, frequent auto-x, canyon driving, HPDE’s, track racing..) and see what setups they have, and what works for them.

Should I get plain, slotted, or cross-drilled rotors?

Look at your application (sense a trend? ). Plain rotors work great for 90% of the people out there.

Cross-drilled rotors were designed back in the 60’s when brake pads tended to outgas pretty badly under high demands, thus keeping the pad from actually contacting the rotor. The holes were designed to help the gases have somewhere to escape to.

However, pad technology has come a long way since the 60’s, and outgassing is no longer that big of a problem, making the holes mostly irrelevant. Worse, cheap cross-drilled rotors are made by simply taking a plain rotor, and drilling holes through them. The holes become points where stress gathers, and the rotor will eventually crack.

Yes, Ferarris and Porsches do come with cross-drilled rotors. However, these rotors are very, very expensive, and designed to not crack. Unless you want to spend insane amounts of money just to look cool, slotted rotors make much more sense.

Slotted rotors help provide a bit more ‘bite” and help wipe away debris from the pads when braking. The slots generally don’t create stress in the rotor, and generally won’t lead to cracking (assuming you purchase reputable rotors, instead of the $20 Wal-Mart specials). Plus, they look sort of cool, too.

How do I bed in my new brake pads?

Bedding in your brake pads will greatly reduce the chances that you’ll transfer pad material onto your rotors, creating a ‘warped’ sensation.

Most good brake pads will come with instructions on how to properly bed them in, but all bed-ins follow a similar pattern. You get up to speed (60-75mph), then brake down to about 5 mph (but not stopping!), and repeat several times, let the pads cool, then repeat. More aggressive (track oriented) pads will require stops from higher speeds. You do not want to stop while you are bedding in your pads, because this might transfer material, which is what you’re trying to avoid.

Make sure you’re in an area where you can safely accelerate and brake without annoying traffic around you, and where you can turn around without having to come to a complete stop.

------------------------------------

I hope that this post helps out some people. Please feel free to respond and let me know if you disagree with anything. We can all learn from each other! If you have anything that you feel should be added, please let me know as well.

Pte Socks
02-11-2006, 02:18 PM
Great thread man. Also, you might want to include the effects of rims on brakes. Many people here shop for nice rims that look cool and not much else. The problem with this is the facct that nice rims usually weigh much more and thus you need better brakes to stop at the same distance as before. The point about brake fluid, SS lines and better pads is great though, its really makes a huge difference

SilverGA2001
02-11-2006, 03:05 PM
Haven't we been through this? :roll2:

tenspeed
02-11-2006, 05:05 PM
Many different points have been brought into one thread. Yes, many of the points have been discussed before.

The only place where there may be a disagreement (IMHO) is around the speed need to properly bed in a new set of pads. The last set I installed used a 30-30. That is 30 mph, a full stop and 30 seconds stopped with the foot off the brake to let them cool. I don't remember how many times you were supposed to do it. Stopped from 75, well, I'm not so comfortable with.

Good job, Foxy.

Foxy
02-11-2006, 07:07 PM
Pte,

I want to do an alternate thread for wheels, and how changing the size affects braking, handling, and acceleration. Good suggestion!

Originally posted by SilverGA2001
Haven't we been through this? :roll2:

Quite possibly - but I keep seeing the same things being asked (I've been slowly working my way backwards in the forum, reading things), and thought I'd put in my two cents.

Oldman,

I should've put more emphasis into the variability in bedding in techniques. On my Hawk HPS pads, they say 45mph. Carbotech says 50mph-5mph. Stoptech says 60mph-5mph for street pads and 100 mph - 50 mph (!!) for track pads. This is definately one case where you want to look at what the manufacturer recommends, because it's not one size fits all. I tend to run more aggressive pads, so I think that they require more heat in them to be considered bedded in.

Pte Socks
02-12-2006, 12:52 PM
Im liking this foxy guy, I havent been on this site in quite some time due to training but I can tell you know some of your shit man, its good to get some more experience around here.