3.4 intake repair info needed"HELP"

[dgo]

I'm repairing my 03' sct grand am with the 3.4L
I'm trying to fix the upper intake , it was leaking some coolant out the front left side of the gasket for about 2 months but it was a very slow leak, but it has now made its way to the inside of the motor and now it has just started to intermix so i got to fix this problem now, if anyone has done this repair and could send me some info to help make this easier, other wise I will try doing it blind. i'm sure that it won't be to hard but might take longer with no step by step instructions. Help!

Thanks Dgo Dave

[rixGAphx]

I'm not falmilar with any sort of coolant leak from the UPPER intake manifold on the V-6, either 3.1 or 3.4.

There are two small (3/8"?) short (2") coolant hoses that attach to the left (driver) sid of the UIM, just under the trhottle body.
Even if they leaked, or the UIM cracked at that location, the coolant canNOT get 'down into the engine (crankcase) from there.
* * *

I truly think you have a bad LOWER intake manifold gasket.
This is a major problem on nearly EVERY pre-'01 3.1 or 3.4 V-6, and its symptoms are just as you describe.

Do a 'search' in the 'Problems and Solutions' forum of this webbsite, since the subject has been discussed in depth numerous times.

Good luck.
-Rick

PS:
'Normal cost' for this LIM gasket replacement is about $650-750US.

About $40 parts + 8 hours labor @ $75-80 per hour.
Takes a decently-equipped and competent home mechanic about 12 hours to do it the first time, with a Haynes manual for reference.

[quadkid]

save yourself the agony im in with the damn fuel inlet line and have a mechanic do it.

[Shad0wguy]

While we are on this topic, is it possible get the LIM issue more than once? The previous owner of my car had had this issue once before and had it fixed.

[RedGrandAm2003]

Well isnt it the coolant the "long life" coolant, and its too acidic, and if they put more long life coolant in there, it'll just eat the gasket again?? So I imagine... yes.

[rixGAphx]

Originally posted by RedGrandAm2003
Well isnt it the coolant the "long life" coolant, and its too acidic, and if they put more long life coolant in there, it'll just eat the gasket again?? So I imagine... yes.
SPOBI!!!

Stop
Putting
Out
Bogus
Info!

The problem is the DESIGN of the intake gasket, relative to the 60* heads and the 'split' manifold concept (LIM + UIM).

The problem we 60* V-6 Owners have is NOT the 'DexCool' issue.
1. There ARE major DexCool ('extended-Life Coolant') issues.
2. EVERY modern engine has a gasket between the Intake Manifold and the cylinder head(s).
You don't see massive numbers of failures of Intake Manifold gaskets on Chevy 350's, GM 90* V-6's (4.3), Pontiac 2.3's, EcoTec's, Ford V-6's (which also use 'extended-life coolant'), etc.
*Some*, yes, but no where near the percentage as our GM 60* V-6.
3. DexCool is NOT acidic!! Nor is it caustic ('base'). It is essntially 'ph-neutral'.
4. BUT, it's mixture of additives DOES seem to be 'corrosive' when mixed with the 3 different metals of modern cooling systems (iron, aluminum, brass/copper) in the presence of heat and electrical flow (thru the 12v grounding system).
5. *Most* DexCool complaints are relative to the 'gunk' that forms within the cooling system, often resulting in blockages and eventual system failure/engine damage.
6. Do some in-depth reading on the 'DexCool' issue, from true researchers rather than word-of-mouth.
* * *

Yes, the LIM gasket can fail repeatedly.

There is a 'new design' gasket that became available (thru GM and thru FelPro) about 2001.
There is also a precise procedure for sealing the ENDS of the LIM-to-block connection (which uses silicone sealant rather than the gasket), and the bolts that attach the LIM to the heads must have special thread treatment and torquing.
If the first repair was made with the 'old' gasket design, IMO it's 95% certain that IT will eventually fail.

My first LIM gasket repair was with the 'old' gasket, $50 deductible thru the extended warranty program.

My second LIM gasket failure resulted in warped heads, valve job, etc.
$2700 out-the-door (including many new sensors). :eek:

GM 60* V-6's with 2-part Intake Manifolds SUCK.
But, that's just my personal opinion :roll2:

Good luck,
-Rick

PS: Ford V6 owners recently won a major class action suit against Ford: Rather than the gasket failing, Ford used a plastic Intake Manifold which CRACKED! :eek: It was very easy to prove in court that it was a design failure.

GM V6 owners' attempts at a class-action suit haven't gone anywhere (because of the difficulty of proving 'design error' in the gasket design).
This won't ever go to court, since the problem has been fixed (with the 2001 re-design) and the only cars left with the problem are 6+ years old.
We owners-of-old-V6's don't have enough political/monetary clout to interest the attorneys.

[RedGrandAm2003]

O.o It was just a suggestion, as you can obviously tell. It was more of a question, I wasn't saying that that was the exact problem, but of course if you dont read the post fully then you'd do something like that eh?

[cocobob]

rixGAphx: actually the proble still exists. I am presently trying to get our 2nd 2004 GA in our family cars that need a new LIM. Just got the SE1 done last Nov. now the GT needs it. The story from the dealership service mgr is that the redesign came in 2004 and that our motors were probably done before. As for a class action - I do not believe that we would have to prove it as a design flaw in itself - just present the number of people who have the problem should be enough to prove an existing problem existing since forever.

[rixGAphx]

Originally posted by cocobob
rixGAphx: actually the proble still exists. I am presently trying to get our 2nd 2004 GA in our family cars that need a new LIM.
Damned GM :banghead:

Yeah, I guess the redesign happened just about the time I joined this board, 'bout 3 years ago.

As for a class action - I do not believe that we would have to prove it as a design flaw in itself - just presenting the number of people who have the problem should be enough to prove an existing problem existing since forever.
Well, you can present all the examples you want of how many times the gasket has failed.

But you must still prove design flaw.

That is the entire basis of tort actions: Somebody did something WRONG, and somebody else was harmed by the action (or failure to act).

If you don't prove GM's design/manufacture is WRONG, then GM will say it was the Owner's faults, all 5,000,000 of them, for not having properly maintained the vehicle.

And in GM's defense, I understand they HAVE been very responsible in repairing LIM gasket failures for vehicles still under warranty.
* * *

But that's not the real problem with a suit.
The real problem is there isn't any money to be won, so a class-action suit is a waste of time.

Step back and look at the financials of the situation:

* Since '94 when the GA went into production with the 60*V6 in UIM/LIM form, plus all the other GM models with the same engine, they must have produced 20M+ of these engines.

* ASSUME 25% of them had LIM gasket failure in less than 100k miles, but BEYOND manufacturer's warranty;
that's 5,000,000 engines!!

* At $600 each for LIM gasket repair, that's a potential exposure of $3 BILLION for GM!!!.

* ASSUME only 1/3 of the 'potential claimants' comes forward, and that the 'final settlement' is for $300 EACH.

* That's $500,000,000 out of GM's pocket, 1/3 of which would go to [our] attorneys.
Nice $167,000,000 paycheck for representing us, no?

* NO.
GM doesn't HAVE $167M.
They don't even have $1M!!!

GM just sold GMAC (the finance division) for about $8B over the weekend, just to get operating cash.

GM is strangled with future debt (primarily for unfunded pensions), and their per-vehicle production costs are SOOOOO high that they make practically no profit on anything but 'vettes and large SUV's.
And there are some terrific financial liabilities with Delphi, their number one supplier.

Even if a judgement were ultimately entered against GM (in mebbe 5 years at the earliest, excluding appeals), they would simply declare bankruptcy and have the judgement vacated;
that would SERIOUSLY foul-up a lot of pension obligations, and Delphi.
Perfectly legal; result:
Plaintiffs - $0, plaintiffs attorneys - $0, GM attorneys $50M+;
GM - Priceless.

Bottom Line: No attorneys are going to mount a class action, even if a slam-dunk, since there's no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

And this is not a slam-dunk by FAR, since at least half of the complainants are pointing a finger at DexCool.
Even though DexCool is GM's name for the stuff, it is invented/patented by Havoline, so that's another fuzzed-up tort that isn't going anywhere.

But it sure explains why GM is having business problems and the foreign makers are soaring ahead in sales and loyalty.

Anywho, just $0.02 from my non-lawyer mind on the issue.
-Rick

PS:
GM *should* say they're sorry, and offer every LIM-screwed owner a flat $500 additional discount off any new GM passenger vehicle (excluding 'vette :D ).

The announcement can be made by the sh!t-for-brains Chief Engineer who approved the LIM/UIM design, swhile tanding beside the Chief Beancounter who determined the 'losses would be acceptable' :roll:

[ENGGUY]

Hmmm GM should have asked for help from their old retirees that designed the good looking vehicles. And fired the designers they have now.
Funny how they got rid of all the best looking and top selling models. I had a Chev salesman tell me many months ago that if he had new Geo Metro's and Cavalier's on the lot he would be selling new cars. Funny how GM didn't want to even listen to their dealers, that have been telling them to make cars that people want. Personally I think that is the "big" plan anyway, to eliminate the biggest automaker in the US. Looks like it is working .

[rixGAphx]

Originally posted by ENGGUY
...make cars that people want.
...that is the "big" plan anyway, to eliminate the biggest automaker in the US.
Looks like it is working .
Maybe the present crop of GM designers/engineers/marketingidiots are actually Toyota 'moles', planted deep inside GM to ensure its failure. :eek: :eek:

Where Japan didn't succeed militarily in the '40's, they now accomplish by industrial intrigue?





And, Lee Harvey Oswald didn't act alone. :D

[XoticGA]

Yea, Rick.. it's after 01 too :( I got hit with my 03 at 34K :(

[ENGGUY]

http://www.unitypublishing.com/Newsletter/Bilderburg.htm

Yeah I suppose toyota is in it too. But there's more. LOL