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nightwulf
08-25-2006, 08:31 PM
Hello, folks. I've recently had a 97 Grand Am GT (3.1 V6) given to me by a friend. The car is in decent shape, can't beat the price, and it gets me to work and back. Usually ...

Background: the "Check Engine" light is always on. The code returned is always 0420 (catalyst efficiency below threshold). On occasion, roughly once a month, the "Check Engine" light will begin flashing. So far, when this occurs, the additional code returned is always 0304 (cylinder four misfire).

While the light is flashing, the car runs horribly. The engine seems to shake while idling and during acceleration, up to ~30mph. Acceleration is also much slower than normal. Fuel economy is also greatly decreased. I live roughly 15 miles from work. If I have to drive the entire 15 miles with the light flashing, I'll easily go through an eighth of a tank of gas. After a period of time, generally about a day, the engine will smooth out and the light will return to solid.

This only happens just after the car is started (I can tell within about two seconds of hearing the engine; long before the light starts flashing). It does not suddenly start happening while on the road. I've also noticed that when this happens, the vehicle seems to crank weaker than normal. On one occasion I released the key from the "start" position more quickly than I normally do, and the light started flashing. Turning off the car and restarting it several seconds later, making sure to let the engine fully start before releasing the key, corrected the problem.

Once the problem stops and the engine light stops flashing, I'll check and clear the codes. So far, it's always been 0304 and 0420 that are cleared. After driving about five miles, the engine light will turn on again (solid, not flashing), and checking the codes at this point will only yield 0420.

The car has roughly 134,000 miles on it, so I'm not looking to spend a ton of money into fixing it. This car is intended to get me to work and back while I save money to purchase something better. So far I've had the spark plug and wire replaced (on cylinder 4 only) and it's made no difference.

Another problem which probably isn't related is the AC. The car makes a high-pitched grinding sound while running, and there are small metal shavings scattered near the AC compressor. I've had a few different people look at this specifically, and all believe the problem is the compressor. The AC doesn't work either (blows, but blows hot). I'm not interested in fixing this due to the cost (and I can live without AC), but if it's somehow related to the misfire problem, I may not have an option. Could metal shavings from the compressor somehow find their way into the engine?

While I'm far from a "gearhead," I do work in an auto service center (as a service writer), so I have a staff of technicians to assist with my problems. One (the same one who replaced the plug/wire) suggested to also replace the coil pack, but offered that anything further than that is probably more money than I want to invest in this car.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to the cause of the problem, or ideas of (relatively) inexpensive items to replace which could help? Thanks much in advance.

nice96gt
08-25-2006, 09:58 PM
I would start by checking the plugs and wires. Since you know it's cylinder 4 that's misfiring that will give you an idea as to where to start looking. Cylinder 4 on the 3100 is in the middle on the radiator side incse you weren't sure.

ENGGUY
08-25-2006, 10:12 PM
Start with new O2 sensor /s.

TorquePower
08-26-2006, 07:16 AM
Pull a plug wire, start the car, at least do it on the front three wires. Do it to # 4 first though. Tell me what happens.

antoniobanderas
08-26-2006, 08:32 AM
MAN ,HO MAN! you are a service writer? and with all those mechanics by you side and cant found out the problem? holy cow!its scary to say the least! one can only imagine ! readers, learn from this and find a shop thats recomended

pokesmot
08-26-2006, 04:07 PM
When the check engine light flashs it usually means catalytic damage due to misfire.

basically, from what you have said cylinder #4 isn't firing.
as already mentioned by nice96gt, plugs and wires should be the first thing to check.

if the ignition wires have numbers on them, chances are they are the original wires that came with the car and you should replace them, with plugs as well. I recommend the ACDelco rapidfire plugs, if you can afford them.

should solve your problem, smooth out your idle and boost fuel economy :)

sometimes the ceramic part of the spark plug cracks, so check for that.

driving your car with a flashing check engine light is no good, it will eventually destroy your catalytic converter from excessive fuel and carbon dumping... try and get the tune up done soon.

as far as the grinding and the metal shavings, it could most likely be the compressor clutch or bearing seized / damaged. you should have this checked out or remove / bypass the compressor to prevent the compressor from seizing, and shredding a belt (no power steering, alternator, water pump.. get it check out ASAP)

tenspeed
08-26-2006, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by nightwulf
So far I've had the spark plug and wire replaced (on cylinder 4 only) and it's made no difference.

One (the same one who replaced the plug/wire) suggested to also replace the coil pack, but offered that anything further than that is probably more money than I want to invest in this car.


Can you swap the coil pack to see if the problem stays in #4 or travels with the coil pack? If it travels, the pack is bad. If it stays, give the car to another friend.

TorquePower
08-26-2006, 04:49 PM
^ yeah what Jim said. If you pull the spark plug wire off #4 and the car runs BETTER with it off, then it's the coil pack for sure. My method is just the poor way. lol.

pokesmot
08-26-2006, 05:24 PM
ahh missed that, was using remote desktop at work and it shrank the window.

rixGAphx
08-28-2006, 12:04 PM
He said in the original post he has already replaced the No. 4 plug and wire.

If there's a problem with the coil, then #4's companion plug will also be affected.
No. 4 is paired with No. 3 IIRC, so that would also be mis-firing.

The mis-fire codes are *most often* caused by ignition (plug/wire/coil) problems, but not always.
In the case of my '96 3.1, it was stuck injector(s). First #2, then others.
It was stuck OPEN, so there was always a trickle of gas. Caused a very rich condition, and eventually caused the demise of the front O2 sensor and the cat.

Solution: Remove the UIM and replace that injector; $80-140 EACH for injectors, but there are some good package deals (mebbe from our site sponsors?? I dunno) for all 6.
Keep in mind, whatever has caused one to stick open (usually a microscopic grain of sand stuck in the orifice) can soon cause several others to stick open.
At 137k, complete service/replacement of injectors isn't unusual; especially if the previous owner bought less-than-name-brand gasoline and didn't change the fuel filter regularly.
* * *

I don't think there should be confusion regarding the P04420 code: It's a 10-yr old engine with 137k miles and a (prolly) rich-running engine.
The cat has served the car well, and now it no longer functions properly.
That's what code P0420 is for: to let you know the cat doesn't work properly.

Mebbe if that rich-running engine (#4 injector) is fixed, the cat will be able to clean the exhaust.
But IMO it has just had it and must be replaced.
Don't throw money at EITHER O2 sensor, since there are NO indications that either is faulty.
Mebbe just test them with a multi-meter to verify they are within proper tolerances.

Hope this helps, and :welcome: to GAOC!!
-Rick

PS: Friends don't give friends V-6 GA's :roll:

:D :D

nightwulf
09-01-2006, 04:45 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions! A couple days ago, the same problem started again, so I started acting on some of the ideas here.

Removing the no. 4 wire and starting the car did result in the engine running better. Not nearly as well as it usually runs, but very noticably less rough.

Unfortunately, the plot has thickened. I quit bothering to check the engine codes after each time it happened, but this time I did, and came up with the dreaded 0300 (random/multiple misfire). I cleared the codes and started the car again, and this time I'm getting a cylinder 6 misfire. Cleared and rechecked two more times, same result. Unfortunately (kinda, heh) cylinders 4 and 6 do not share the same coil.

This floored me. It's been cylinder 4 every single time this has happened since I began driving this car (about seven months ago). I think we've gone from "this car will get me by for a few months" to "trade this thing off ASAP." It's a shame, because I do like the car (when it's running well ... ), but at the moment I simply don't have the time or bank account to replace everything under the sun.

Thanks again for all the suggestions. At this point, I may go ahead and replace all six plugs/wires and hope, but it's seeming more involved than that. As of today, two days later, it's still running poorly.

Originally posted by antoniobanderas
MAN ,HO MAN! you are a service writer? and with all those mechanics by you side and cant found out the problem? holy cow!its scary to say the least! one can only imagine ! readers, learn from this and find a shop thats recomended

...

To be fair, a "service writer" generally does a hell of a lot more than I do, but it's a convenient way to describe my job. We're a small shop that deals mainly in preventative maintenance, brakes, and minor suspension repair. We don't do any kind of engine work, so unfortunately my technicians aren't very experienced with these kinds of problems, and we have no means of diagnosing such things (well, other than a code reader, but that's hardly a thorough means of diagnosis).