tapping noise in engine"3400"

[beaver200]

i have a 2004 grand am gt.i had purchased the car with
18,000km.When it rolled arround to apprximately 24,000km i noticed a slight tapping in the engine.To me it sounded like the valve terraine so i took it to the garage and they replaced lifters under warrenty.Couple days later the noise comes back,i take it back they say it is a common noise this time so that tells me they don't know what it is.i let it go for a little while.but now the noise is getting fustrating.I mean i would like to get it fixed while it is still on warrenty.
has anyone else run into this tapping noise.
it is most noticeable on start up.
looking to find a solution,please help me end my frustration?
to me no noise is a common noise,if it was a common noise i would not of purchased it.
thank.

[bballr4567]

Well most people will tell you that the lifter noise is pretty common especially on a cold start. Its just a quirk of the engine.

[beaver200]

but sometime it is really loud and happens every time i start?

[Colin]

These engines are known for piston slap . If it happens when you first start the engine and goes away after a min or two that's likely what it is .... ;)

[beaver200]

can it be fixed ?

[Colin]

Originally posted by beaver200
can it be fixed ? Sure , but it would be expensive . It would involve new pistons being fitted to the engine . If it's mild and goes away in a min or less it may not be all that bad , but if it's loud and lasts longer it would be cause for concern . Because of the very short skirt design of the pistons , it's a common issue with 3400 and other GM engines ....

[bballr4567]

Yea go find another person that has a GA and listen to them start up thier engine when its cold. It will do the same thing. Its pretty common.

[Colin]

More info ---- >http://www.pistonslap.com/

[rixGAphx]

Originally posted by bballr4567
Yea go find another person that has a GA with 3.4 V6 and listen to them start up their engine when it's cold.
It will do the same thing.
It's pretty common.
Fixed.

The 4-cyls generally don't have this problem.
The 3.1's have slightly-smaller-diameter pistons, and the difference is just enough that most have no piston slap

[daman]

Just wondering,what type of oil and filter you use???

[bballr4567]

Originally posted by rixGAphx
Fixed.

The 4-cyls generally don't have this problem.
The 3.1's have slightly-smaller-diameter pistons, and the difference is just enough that most have no piston slap Well it wouldnt make much sense to go compare engines if it wasnt the same engine. I was just figuring the OP had enough sense to realize that.

[pontiac3100]

okay this piston slap everyone speak of...i don't have it.

my friends 3100 has it though, we used some restore and within 2/3 days it went away...

[HeyDace]

Our '95 Corsica, 3.1 had it since it was new, more noticible when it reached 60k. I knew what it was and wasn't concerned...traded the sucker in for a new Suburban...which since then has developed a rap on start- up when its cold...mains...still ain't sweating it. When that engine goes, I'm putting in a 502 and lifting it 4" with 35's. :P

[rixGAphx]

Originally posted by HeyDace
When that engine goes, I'm putting in a 502 and lifting it 4" with 35's. :eek: :eek:

Yet another reason to avoid Massachusetts.





:D :D

[slowbird]

It's NOT piston slap.

The 2004+ 3400 engines have specially coated Pistons now so we don't have that issue.

My 04 has the ticking too. It's real bad on Cold starts but it goes away after a couple minutes. I'm using Mobil1 Full Synthetic and it still does it.

Does the Ticking go away after awhile of running Beav?

[Colin]

Originally posted by slowbird
It's NOT piston slap. According to you .... :roll2: Without actually hearing the noise no one really knows for certain , but given the symtoms it sure seems like it might be .... ;)

[slowbird]

If it goes away after warming up it's just the valvetrain not oilling up right away.

The newer 3400's have Coated Pistons so they don't have the Slap anymore.

[Colin]

Originally posted by slowbird
If it goes away after warming up it's just the valvetrain not oilling up right away.

The newer 3400's have Coated Pistons so they don't have the Slap anymore. Obviously you didn't bother to look at the website i posted , even 05 + vehicles have this problem . The noise being present at cold startup and then going away after warming up is a classic piston slap issue . The valvetrain noise you're refering to would only be there briefly untill the oil pressure pumped up .... ;)

[Jchiasson]

Coating on a piston will not prevent piston slap. I had an '89 Ranger that died from piston slap. Pistons in the natural rotation of the engine go slightly cock-eyed in the cylinder bore. If the pistons clearances are not to tight clearances they will "rock" at the top of the stroke and the piston skirt will take a considerable blow when it hits the opposite wall.
I'm not sure what materials manufactures are currently using, but hyper-eutectic pistons are the way to go. They are a special blend of metals that do not expand and/or contract as bad as the old alloys do so you can have tighter tolerances when assembling....

[Colin]

Originally posted by Jchiasson
I'm not sure what materials manufactures are currently using, but hyper-eutectic pistons are the way to go. They are a special blend of metals that do not expand and/or contract as bad as the old alloys do so you can have tighter tolerances when assembling.... Pistons in the 3400 are hypereutectic , it's the short skirt design and poor manufacturing tolerances that are to blame ...

[Jchiasson]

Originally posted by Colin
Pistons in the 3400 are hypereutectic , it's the short skirt design and poor manufacturing tolerances that are to blame ...

:iagree:
As is pointed out nicely by the link earlier in thread. www.pistonslap.com

[slowbird]

Go on the 60 Degree V6 site and read up on the 3400 Pistons and Piston slap.

The Piston Skirts are Coated on 04+ 3400 to prevent Piston Slap.

General coating may not prevent Piston Slap, but this was done for that reason.

I even remember hearing that some 3400 started having only 1 bank of Cylinders with coated Piston Skirts cause the Slap problem was on a Specific part of the motor.

The noise my car has is valvetrain sounding....100%.

I used to listen to what a few people said until a few 60degreeV6 Buddies of mine and I sat around the car during a warm start up (Sat for a little while) and we listened..

Valvetrain.

Beav, MAY have piston slap...but considering it's an 04...I doubt it.

[daman]

To check for piston slap: Remove three spark plugs, leaving number one in place. Crank the engine over until you feel the resistance of number one piston coming up on compression. Crank against compression until the piston is about half way up the cylinder. , rock the crankshaft back and forth and listen for a metallic knocking sound. If you hear a knock, you have piston slap.

[daman]

Originally posted by Jchiasson
:iagree:
As is pointed out nicely by the link earlier in thread. www.pistonslap.com

i get a kick outa them pics on that site of the cylinders walls
in that 8.0L,thos are dirt scraches,, not from piston slap..LOL

[Jchiasson]

Ok, so I went over to 60 Degree v6, did a search....thier search engine sucks.
While browsing www.pistonslap.com I came across a TSB (http://www.pistonslap.com/tsb/010601005.pdf)
Taken directly from the link
"Replace pistons in engine cylinder positions 5 and 6 ONLY if there is evidence of damage to the polymer coating on the piston skirt, or cylinder wall wall (heavy scratches) is evident."

So I wouldn't be to confident in that coating.

[slowbird]

Originally posted by Jchiasson

So I wouldn't be to confident in that coating.

That TSB is for 2000-20001 3100 Engines.

The Coatings to prevent Piston Slap weren't added until 2004

[Jchiasson]

What you think Gm isn't going to take their idea from one engine and use it in another if it has the same problem.

[slowbird]

In many cases the 3100 is quite similar to the 3400, and some cases not.

Though quoting a TSB regarding 2000-2001 vehicles, and saying it proves that the coating added in 2004 isn't to be trusted is well....silly. :)

[bballr4567]

Originally posted by slowbird
Though quoting a TSB regarding 2000-2001 vehicles, and saying it proves that the coating added in 2004 isn't to be trusted is well....silly. :) And GM also said that there isnt a LIM gasket issue for a long time before finally say yes we screwed up.

[slowbird]

Originally posted by bballr4567
And GM also said that there isnt a LIM gasket issue for a long time before finally say yes we screwed up.

Which they resolved in 2004....when they decided to shape up:

• Graphite Cylinder Head Gaskets
• Improved Water Pump (lighter impeller)
• Improved Sealing (gaskets and LIM issue resolved)
• Improved Bearings (Lighter and more durable)
• More Efficient Catalytic Converter
• Improved Flywheel (Lightweight)

[Jchiasson]

Originally posted by slowbird
Though quoting a TSB regarding 2000-2001 vehicles, and saying it proves that the coating added in 2004 isn't to be trusted is well....silly. :)

I never stated that it proved anything. All I was getting at was said in the last line of that reply.

"So I wouldn't be to confident in that coating."

[slowbird]

I'm not saying there ISN'T an ISSUE with Piston Slap....I'm saying the chances of Beav having it is slim because he's got an 04.

I've had people tell me I had Piston Slap before even looking or listening to my car cause they think all 3400 have it...what if I didn't know any better and I had a rod Knock.

"Excuse me sir....can you take a listen to my car...it's making a noise..."

"Oh! Piston Slap. It's Normal. NEXT!"

[slowbird]

Originally posted by Jchiasson
I never stated that it proved anything. All I was getting at was said in the last line of that reply.

"So I wouldn't be to confident in that coating."

The coating mentioned in that TSB is not the same coating that I'm talking about.

It's not the same coating.

But yes...I do understand what you are saying....GM is cheap, and shady....don't trust their supposed fixes.

50,000miles on my car....driven hard. Drag racing. No issues, no LIM leak, No Piston Slap.

Something was done right.

[Jchiasson]

Originally posted by slowbird
Which they resolved in 2004....when they decided to shape up:

• Graphite Cylinder Head Gaskets
• Improved Water Pump (lighter impeller)
• Improved Sealing (gaskets and LIM issue resolved)
• Improved Bearings (Lighter and more durable)
• More Efficient Catalytic Converter
• Improved Flywheel (Lightweight)

Gees that's not to bad.
I would love to know how a more efficient catalytic converter, water pump, bearings and improved flywheel helped the LIM issue though.

Now that's technology!

[slowbird]

Originally posted by Jchiasson
Gees that's not to bad.
I would love to know how a more efficient catalytic converter, water pump, bearings and improved flywheel helped the LIM issue though.

Now that's technology!

3rd one from the top on that list :roll2:

[Jchiasson]

Originally posted by slowbird
Something was done right.

And I'm lucky, 107000km and as far as I know never raced or dragged, purrs like a kitten. All though I did notice some slight oil sludge from LIM gasket last engine scrub.

[daman]

Originally posted by Jchiasson
Now that's technology! [/B]

Sell your GA and buy a Ford if your not happy with GM...Geshhh

[bballr4567]

Well most cars that had the LIM issue were about 2-3 years old or had about 75k to 100k miles on them so you really cant say that they fixed the LIM issue just yet.

I love GM cars but sometimes they are just a lil sloppy.

[slowbird]

Most LIM issues I've heard about happen almost right away.

Well before the 50k mark

[bballr4567]

Hmmm down here its up a lot higher. Wierd.

Oh well I hope they do get it fixed for GMs sake.

[slowbird]

Yea...GM is much better now...hence GM's new 5Year/160,000km Powertrain warranty.

[bballr4567]

Yup, although I still hate those damn commercials

[slowbird]

Originally posted by bballr4567
Yup, although I still hate those damn commercials

LOL!

Better than those AERO commercials.

[Jchiasson]

Originally posted by daman
Sell your GA and buy a Ford if your not happy with GM...Geshhh

Never said I was unhappy with GM. All manufacturers have their issues.
I was just wondering how those items I listed had anything to do with the response to, and quoted, the LIM gasket issue.
Besides, i don't think ford has a good looking car as such.

[daman]

Originally posted by Jchiasson
Besides, i don't think ford has a good looking car as such.

Not by a long shot....

[RocketFast321]

Originally posted by slowbird
Most LIM issues I've heard about happen almost right away.

Well before the 50k mark

Not always true. I know of a person who had a 03 GA. 145k and the motor was not even leaking coolant. Their are a few that were made right.

[slowbird]

Originally posted by Jchiasson
I was just wondering how those items I listed had anything to do with the response to, and quoted, the LIM gasket issue.


• Graphite Cylinder Head Gaskets
• Improved Water Pump (lighter impeller)
• Improved Sealing (gaskets and LIM issue resolved)
• Improved Bearings (Lighter and more durable)
• More Efficient Catalytic Converter
• Improved Flywheel (Lightweight)

The one in bold.

[Jchiasson]

One out of six aint bad.

[puch96]

I have a similar noise. Although I believe it doesn't sound like piston slap. I think the problem are the lifters that are knocking...

It goes away upon warm up.

[MantaGreen97]

Originally posted by slowbird
The one in bold.
LOL I was laughing at that whole exchange myself because I was thinking the same thing...

However, I still maintain the only real fix for the LIM leaking is what they did on the 3900--just eliminate the stinkin coolant passages from the LIM altogether. (On the 3900 the coolant returns down the side of the engine meaning no LIM issues.)

As for piston slap I was always under the impression that it occured because of the hypereutectic pistons, but then there are a billion theories about every "problem" with these engines. From blaming DEX for the LIM leaks; to blaming all sorts of stuff for the cold-start ticking.

To me, the LIM issues are definitely worth complaining about. The ticking noises (if caused by the pistons) are not--it is indeed "normal" and doesn't do any harm to the engine. If its truly a lifter/valvetrain noise then yeah fix that, but the pistons? It's not that big a deal IMO.

[Colin]

Originally posted by MantaGreen97
The ticking noises (if caused by the pistons) are not--it is indeed "normal" and doesn't do any harm to the engine. If its truly a lifter/valvetrain noise then yeah fix that, but the pistons? It's not that big a deal IMO. I have to disagree , piston slap that lasts more than a few seconds is not 'normal' and it could cause damage to the piston and bore over time . Also fuel mileage and emissions are proven to be worse on slappers . GMs poor manufacturing tolerances and short piston skirt result in this issue . They tell customers who complain about noise and oil consumption it's normal , yeah right :roll2: If it's not a problem why is a vehicle with audible piston slap valued less than one that isn't , who'd want to buy it ? ...

[MantaGreen97]

People have had 3x00s with hundreds of thousands of kms and the cold-start tick, and no problems. GM says it's normal, a lot of people agree that it's just a noise at startup. Of course others don't, lol.

The emissions tests results on my car have been consistent and always well below maximums, over 9 years of ownership. The car has had the piston slap or whatever it is that causes the ticking at startup, for as long as I can remember. I actually read a 0.00 on CO emissions at idle on my last test. Obviously there has to be some CO but it's below 0.00; so if my engine is supposedly a worse polluter than a car without piston slap, then how much less CO would a non-slapper have? 0.002 less CO emission? 1ppm NOx less? That's a huge assumption to make, and I would put money on it that there are certainly going to be non-slapping 3x00s out there that will not beat my car on the tailpipe test. I'm sure the opposite can be said too, but it has little to do with piston slap. Those differences between cars would merely be random and perhaps related to owner maintenance...

After 180,000km, my car still holds 120 km/h at 2000rpm in top gear (as it did the day off the lot), and I can even still hit the ~176 km/h limiter (as I found out by accident, recently) in top gear, converter locked, at 3000rpm (oh and this is with the LIM leaking pretty good and the low coolant light on). I don't really think my fuel economy is that much worse than it's ever been. LIMs been leaking for over a year (much worse now) and coolant's never gone in the oil (thankfully) and the engine still operates fine.

I have only one complaint about this engine and that's the LIM issue. Other than that I'm quite happy. You can say my engine has poor manufacturing tolerances if you want to, but I think it begs to differ, lol. Short of that coolant getting in the oil, I doubt my engine will be quitting anytime soon ;) And that is all on the LIM gasket problem, nothing else.

As for the value, GM resale value is terrible anyway. Have a look at the thread about how much ppl paid for their cars. There's at least a few with GAs one year old that had prices around half of their original price. The unfortunate matter-of-fact is that resale values are not determined by quality of a vehicle at all--just by public perception and opinion. And I'd have to say at least 90% of those people (particularly in Toronto, lol) wouldn't know a pushrod from a connecting rod :roll2:

Per engineering specificatins, normal oil consumption for an L82 is a maximum of 0.9L per 3200km. It's 1.9L/3200km for an LD9 engine, so the 3100 is not at all bad. (My particular car never really consumed any oil except recently when I lose about 250mL in 10,000km, but that seems to be because of a small oil pan gasket leak which I don't care to fix because it isn't too bad.)

Every engine out there, whether it's made by GM or Honda or Toyota or whoever, has a specification for "normal" or allowed oil consumption. Ideally new engines will never consume oil. However some engines consume oil right off the assembly line, and sometimes that consumption doesn't exceed the maximum allowed by specification. For the "customers that complain" that don't have a clue about how an engine operates nor about engineering and manufacturing allowable tolerances, I couldn't care less. If they got an engine that consumes oil, that's unfortunate, however if it's within tolerance that's the way it is. And now I'm going a bit OT as piston slap has nothing to do with oil consumption either.

People can go on whining about piston slap. Unless it's severe enough to actually do damage, IMO those people are wasting their effort. Sure you might say "that's the problem right there, people not demanding more from manufacturers" but I on the other hand think people should focus more on real problems the manufacturer will not fix. Case in point the LIM issue. That is a very real problem, and not something a small segment merely whine about senselessly.

[pontiac3100]

i agree the 3100 is a damn good engine.
i drive hard everyday and she lives up to the gt "performance".

imports have there share of problems too.

in the 90's the toyota camry/lexus es300 the engines whould blow head gaskets.

acura certain engines would burn oil/ antifreeze.
the exhaust valve lifters would tick and get worse as the engine ages.

and it seems the lim issue is common on 95 or 96 cars and up...

[Colin]

Of course others don't, lol. Correct > http://www.pistonslap.com/experts.htm

[daman]

Originally posted by Colin
Correct > http://www.pistonslap.com/experts.htm

I'm so sick of seeing this dumb a$$ site give me a break, you
know how many gm trucks cars i know that people(farmers,
construction workers)have and they work these trucks, i
know of two off the top of my head that have one,my brother
inlaw has a '99 with 158,000 and a farmer i used to work
for that hauls cattle equipment etc. has a '01 with over 200k
on it and not a damn problem,so you say this P/S is a problem
and the motors won't last,Hmmm...that's alot of miles for not
lasting!!.

i would buy any GM car, truck in a second with a "piston"...slap
and not loose a minute's sleep over it., why?? ,because i know
they'll last, cause i've seen it....MY $.02!!!!

[slowbird]

I think the usual Piston slap is hamless unless the Engine is pushed hard or has forced Induction.

There are so many GM V6's out their that are still running strong.

[stock_am]

speaking of the oil consumption, its normal for a car to take alittle bit of oil. piston rings don't seal 100% and otherwise why is there dip sticks on cars.

[Colin]

I'm so sick of seeing this dumb a$$ site give me a break No ones forcing you to look at it , why are you even looking at a thread about piston slap ?

[daman]

Originally posted by Colin
No ones forcing you to look at it , why are you even looking at a thread about piston slap ?
So i can see what stupid people post up, and i do recognize
the link by just looking at it.........

[Colin]

Originally posted by daman
So i can see what stupid people post up Personal attacks are not tolerated or accepted on this site . I see you have no other recourse than to stoop to name calling ..... :roll2:

[daman]

Originally posted by Colin
Personal attacks are not tolerated or accepted on this site . I see you have no other recourse than to stoop to name calling ..... :roll2:
If it matters i was not calling you stupid ,but the person
who owns the web site and put it on the web, i could see
how it seemed that way, but it's still M/O..