Sweaty LIM. GM won't warranty

[slowbird]

I took my car in for a Check-up since my Extended Warranty is going to end soon.

I noticed a coolant smell the other morning, so I told the Dealership and had them check. They said the LIM looks like the culprut. It doesn't look bad but I should keep an eye on it.

I told them I have the warranty and I'd like them to replace it now. The service manager took a look at it and said it's just "sweaty" and she won't replace it. (The B**ch wouldn't even look me in the eye)

I stood my ground. Told them that the 3400 is known for the issue. My warranty will be up soon and I want them to fix it right this second.

They called GM and they told the dealership to put this stupid Dye in the coolant and told me to come back, and if the Dye shows up on the Outside of the LIM gasket they'll replace it all under warranty.

I have under 4,000kms left till my Warranty is up. I have to go back before then.

Anyone ever hear of this Dye before....apparently it only shows up under Ultraviolet light.

It makes me mad how Useless this "Extended Warranty" is. Everything I try to get fixed on it get's denied.

[sunrunner_pei]

The dye is a normal diagnostic tool for finding cooling system leaks, but it is BS that they are not fixing your LIM.

[rabidpanda69]

get a hold of some dye and make that B**** leak if you know what I mean :lol:

[slowbird]

Yea...I'm pretty pissed.

I sprayed the area with Brake Cleaner.....got it nice and clean. If it get's sweaty there again, I'll be at the Dealership faster than you can say: "I told ya so."

[slowbird]

Originally posted by rabidpanda69
get a hold of some dye and make that B**** leak if you know what I mean :lol:

I thought of that...I thought of buying some of the dye and just putting more in the coolant...cause they only put in like a bottle the size of a White Out/Nail Polish Bottle.

I'm actually hoping it'll just go away.

[Rayz]

Now I ‘m not say to do this, but If it was me I would go back next week to have the LIM gasket checked ,but before going back I'd get an eyedropper of coolant out of the reservoir and run it along the seam of the LIM gasket and the head and let it run down on to the bell housing.:D

My dealer replaced my LIM on extended warranty after doing a simple coolant system pressure check.

[slowbird]

I have all of next week off so I'll come up with something then....maybe I'll just drive to every GM Dealership till one takes it in.

[rabidpanda69]

Ray gets what I'm saying :lol: Not sure if I would actually do it, though, mine has been "sweaty" for like 2 years, but its not actually leaking (yet) Has it been done before one your car? How many miles?

[slowbird]

The LIM has never been done on my car before.

Apparently the issue was fixed with the 2003.5 and newer 3400's.

I just noticed the sweaty recently.

My car has 76,500kms on it....so approx 47,535Miles.

[rabidpanda69]

Yeah, at that point, I'd find a way to make 'em do it.

[kickarsgrdam01]

i think another 4k is enough to get it to really start leaking.

[slowbird]

Well see. I originally thought it was the Oil pump drive seal cause that area was wet.

So I told them to look at the area.

For Chrissakes when the guy changed my Oil he topped off the Coolant. Where do they think the coolant is going? Detroit?

I hate GM.

[bballr4567]

HAHA Changed your oil and topped of your coolant?!? What a retard.

Id do what Ray said and make them eat thier words. Or if you want Id take out as much coolant as you are comfortable with before you go in next time and be like, "Well where in the hell did all that coolant go in 3 weeks???"

Bottom line dont even pay for an extended warrenty again. They really are useless.

[Jchiasson]

Does the check up cost you anything? Put the die in....and listen to Ray!

[slowbird]

When I go in next...probably in a week. I'll check on everything, if it's seeping they should see it all. There should be no charge for them to check for the leak.

I did however have to pay for the Dye. $10. They said they'll refund me the Dye if it turns out I need the LIM replaced.

[stock_am]

you can also get a quote from a different dealer or mechanic, this will give you prove in writing to what the probelm is and in the end will cover your ass.

[MantaGreen97]

Originally posted by slowbird
For Chrissakes when the guy changed my Oil he topped off the Coolant. Where do they think the coolant is going? Detroit?

I hate GM.
Yeah that's retarded, if the coolant level dropped it has to be going somewhere... If not the LIM it's leaking somewhere no matter what (and it probably is the LIM, lol). Anyway the dye should tell the tale.

The idea of going to different dealerships until one does it is not a bad one. However hopefully none of them charge you "diagnosis" fees just to look at it... I think you would probably find one that will do it.

As a side note, just as a word of warning, do not go to the following dealerships for any reason, at any time:

Woodbine Pontiac Buick (Hwy 27 & Rexdale Blvd. area)
and
Leggat Chevrolet (same area).

[slowbird]

I'll add those to MY list of shitty dealers too. Thanks.

It's been almost 24hrs since I used the brake cleaner to clean all the sweatyness away. It's hard to see but it looks pretty dry.

It upsets me how a Dealership can say that having a sweaty gasket is fine. "You can drive it like that for years." They said.

Yea....and that's why my Brother and Father own foreign cars.

[stock_am]

It upsets me how a Dealership can say that having a sweaty gasket is fine. "You can drive it like that for years." They said.

Yea....and that's why my Brother and Father own foreign cars. [/B][/QUOTE]

don't think that GM is the only one. My brother had a Subaru and they wouldn't fix the head gasket leak on it either " said that its not bad" Also as for our current Honda, the dealer is being a pain in the ass and is trying to say that the Valve cover gasket is not covered under warranty. I know what your going through and its BS. By the way, stay away from Scarborough Subaru and Markham Honda.

[slowbird]

Originally posted by stock_am
I know what your going through and its BS. By the way, stay away from Scarborough Subaru and Markham Honda.

Haha :D Cool. Thanks.

Yea...Imports aren't perfect. My dad's Mazda rusted after 2 years.

[Juicesnn4e]

u can buy the dye at ur local plumber supply house

[echoicse]

lim/dexcool problem. Go online and put in "ny state attorney general class action suit-gm dex-cool" info you might want to read.

[rixGAphx]

Chances are good that GM HQ already has your VIN as complaining of a LIM gasket leak, and 'shopping GM dealers' will be fruitless.
Afterall, the dealer doesn't get a cent for the repair unless GM authorizes it, and you already know that their standing orders are to behave as the Service Dealer did: Tell the customer, "It's not very bad," and pour in a bottle of dye.

If they ultimately deny your claim, after reviewing the dye-stain within the warranty period, then you should:
1. Make a claim with the GM regional Manager (or whatever the current title) to review the denial.
2. Review the terms of your 'Extended Warranty', relative to 'disputes'.
Most american warranties declare that a dispute must be heard/decided by an Arbitration Panel, specifically-established in each state for just this purpose (automotive-service disputes).
I dunno what Canada's like in this regard; hopefully, more british than french :eek:

Still denied? Then:
3. Definitely go to a qualified, reputable, non-GM shop and have the 'condition' diagnosed, prior to the expiration of the warranty.
If that mechanic feels justified, he should write a a certified letter indicating his findings.
He would be correct in charging you $100+ for the examination, including administrative time to prepare the letter; but not an extra penny lest he be considered 'bias'.

When the thing DOES fail completely within a few months, you will be able to enforce the then-expired warranty because you were on record with the problem during the warranty period.

Good luck,
-Rick

[rys99grandam]

Makes sure you document that the LIM was leaking based off the GM Diagnostics of the car.

As far as they know the leak could be internal too. They cannot prove that. There for the fault gasket should be replaced no "ifs" " and" or "buts.

Also you may want to consider taking TSB down to the dealer, and Inform them HEY. THIS IS AN ISSUE YOU KNOW ABOUT IT. Whats the deal? And have more documentation on the famous LIM at the time. I had a GM Dealership try to pull something similar with a friends GA Famous Strut Mount Noise, Got him the TSB's on it, and afterwards it was fixed. They tried telling him its a common issue and there is nothing they can do to fix it.

And going to other dealerships may not be a bad idea. When I lowered my car, Pontiac would not take it because of the negative chamber, said no GM dealership would, Took it down to Chevy, No Issues, and they got it to factory specifications. Try a Chevy Dealership, They seem to want to do more work then more.

[slowbird]

Thanks Guys.

I doubt the LIM is leaking inside. The Coolant resevoir is spotless, as is the Dip Stick and Oil Cap.

I'm keeping an eye on the leak area to see if it gets moist again.

[rixGAphx]

Originally posted by slowbird
I'm keeping an eye on the leak area to see if it gets moist again.
Basically, you're engaged in a 4000km 'test period'.

IMO, the LIM gasket failures are attributable to excessive differential expansion between the head and the LIM.
The expansion (heating) and contraction (cooling) occur from the engine warming then cooling, in a cycle.

If your driving is limited to a few 10-minute jaunts each day during your cold winter, then the 'cycling' might not be enough to cause even a hint of leakage.

You need to simulate worst-case conditions to the greatest feasible extent.

Make sure you get the engine good and warm (operating temp, 195*F/90*C) frequently, and for at least several miles; mebbe 60 minutes of running.
Do this often, mebbe plan on using a couple tanks of gas (10 trips of about 60 miles, assuming 300 miles per tank).

GM is only giving you this one 'window of opportunity', so make the most of it by warming the engine enough to cause the problem (if any) to show itself.


Good luck,
-Rick

PS:
There are 4 ends of the heads where leaks can occur in the LIM gasket.
Make sure you clean and examine the rather-inaccessible ends of the rear head as well as the 'easy' ends of the front head.

[echoicse]

They called GM and they told the dealership to put this stupid Dye in the coolant and told me to come back, and if the Dye shows up on the Outside of the LIM gasket they'll replace it all under warranty.
Anyone ever hear of this Dye before....apparently it only shows up under Ultraviolet light.

Regarding the "dye" and "ultraviolet light". If and when the "dye" does leak out of the intake or anywhere else...past history,when GM hot tested engines they had the dye in them,after the hot testing the engines went thru to a line where a inspector(s) checked all the areas where gaskets,etc. were to see if their was leakage. This is the most important part for you to know... In order to see if "dye" escaped thru anything A "HIGH" INTENSITY BLACK (ULTRAVIOLET) LIGHT HAD TO BE USED!! You cannot see any "dye" leakage thru a "LOW" intensity black light!!!

[Jchiasson]

Originally posted by echoicse
They called GM and they told the dealership to put this stupid Dye in the coolant and told me to come back, and if the Dye shows up on the Outside of the LIM gasket they'll replace it all under warranty.
Anyone ever hear of this Dye before....apparently it only shows up under Ultraviolet light.


Dye and Ultraviolet light diagnosis has been around for a bit. We have one in the shop where i work for those hard to detect leaks. I recall hearing about this type of test back when I used to run an auto parts store....many years ago!

[echoicse]

Originally posted by Jchiasson
Dye and Ultraviolet light diagnosis has been around for a bit. We have one in the shop where i work for those hard to detect leaks. I recall hearing about this type of test back when I used to run an auto parts store....many years ago!

Your right on that! Past history when GM hot tested engines they had the dye in them. Now that GM and the rest of the auto companies "cold" test engines they only do it periodically. When a brand new eng.is built they will cold test and hot test (outside the plant) for a period of time and check for leaks w/dye in them. Or if a problem occurs that needs to be looked into,where checking for leaks is needed.

[MantaGreen97]

Originally posted by Jchiasson
Dye and Ultraviolet light diagnosis has been around for a bit.

Yep. Also you want to be using the contrast enhancing glasses/goggles in addition to the black [UV] light!

[slowbird]

Yea...they mentioned the googles aswell.

[GrandAmMN]

Just remember that dealerships aren't GM 'per se'. They are independent businesses - a franchise. And although they get a ton of support from MI, including warranty work reimbursement, they are more-or-less a classy 'mom and pop joint'. They have to pay all their own people, they have to pay interest on every car in their lot, etc....My point is that this should give you some leverage to get the work done on warranty, after all, the fact that some posters were mentioning specific dealerships as 'avoid at all costs' speaks volumes. Don't take no for an answer from some chicken-sh*& "service manager". P.S. tell that fool that small claims court can be a wonderful means to resolve disputes - and in my jurisdiction the winning party gets their fees paid by the loser. He/she won't pick up on the arbitration clause in the warranty language. Sorry for the ramble.

[99GrandAMSE]

... the LIM has several bolts that could be loose(ned) that could cause a leak ... but of course, I am not saying ANYTHING, just stating a fact.

For the record, I would simply tell them the typical LIM leak is not a matter of IF it will leak, but a matter of when and if they are seeing a 'weep' or 'damp' area, this is NOT NORMAL, thus, it is leaking regardless of the amount and since seals are not intended to leak any amount, it should be replaced, end of story!!

[NathanE]

take a dropper of coolant from the resiviour, and make sure the gasket's sweaty when they see it again...

Known issue=replace the thing under warenty, not hope/pray it doesnt leak in 4000km

gotta love GM
~Nate

[slowbird]

UPDATE:

So...the day GM put the dye in and told me to come back I sprayed the "sweaty" area with Brake Cleaner and got everything clean and spotless.

It's been 3 weeks...and about 1500 kms of hard driving and the Lim area is still spotless.

Nothing.

Sooooooooo what do you all think?

If it was leaking I'd see something right? The Oil looks clean and so does the coolant.

[coupe]

IMO there is nothing wrong given the scenerio.

[slowbird]

Originally posted by coupe
IMO there is nothing wrong given the scenerio.

I think you may be right.

[rixGAphx]

Originally posted by slowbird
UPDATE:
It's been 3 weeks...and about 1500 kms of hard driving and the LIM area is still spotless.

Nothing.

Sooooooooo what do you all think?

If it was leaking I'd see something right?
The Oil looks clean and so does the coolant. Just two questions:

Has the coolant system lost ANY coolant?

There are 4 'LIM areas':
both ends of both heads.
Are you monitoring all 4 'areas'?

Standing by,
-Rick

[slowbird]

I've been watching both ends of the LIM...and the parts where the LIM meets the Heads/Block where I can easily see 'em and they all appear to be okay.

I'm unsure but I think the coolant was topped off a little when I took my car in for an oil change. I've never myself seen the coolant level drop.

Coolant looks free of Oil....Oil looks free of coolant. Only place I havent checked for coolant loss is removing the plugs and checking them...but the exhaust is colorless and the Exhast tips have zero deposits on them....I dunnoh why the LIM was sweaty before.

A buddy of mine is saying that they probably just threw some Stop Leak in.

[bballr4567]

Have you ever had the coolant system pressure tested??? That might find tiny tiny leaks in your hoses.

[slowbird]

Never had the system pressure tested. Maybe When I go back I'll have them try that.

[thegrimone]

its cold out side so this may be hard to do without a heated garage, but let the thing run in a warm environment till the cooling fans cut on, you will need to duct the exhaust outside for this one. try that for a while at least 2 cycles, that might heat it up enough to start seeping out.

[bballr4567]

Yea two days after I had my LIM done there was a tiny tiny leak in the hose that is about 6" long and turns twice that is connected to the bleeder screw. It was small enough that it wasnt noticeable until around 40 PSI. lol

[slowbird]

Originally posted by thegrimone
its cold out side so this may be hard to do without a heated garage, but let the thing run in a warm environment till the cooling fans cut on, you will need to duct the exhaust outside for this one. try that for a while at least 2 cycles, that might heat it up enough to start seeping out.

That might work but if it doesn't leak under hard driving conditions then I'm not too worried.

Eventually I'll be replacing the heads so I can do the LIM again then.