Ultra Fast Brake Pad Wear

[slowbird]

(This is all about the Front brakes only...BTW)

In the beginning of June 06, I installed Brand New Roto-Tec Cross Drilled, and Slotted Rotors with EBC Greenstuff Brake Pads.

I just had my car serviced and the mechanic comes out with my Brake Pads with hardly any meat left on them. I checked...and they were mine. They were EBC Greenstuff pads.

I aksed the Mechanic if they were installed right and he said yes. I asked if he things the rotors are to blame and he said no....then he just shrugged and said: "You probably drive the car hard." :O

I've put on maybe 15,000-20,000kms on those pads.

Question: What's wrong with me? :roll2: How'd I go through these pads so quickly!?!?


Funny....the service person was like: "We need to machine your rotors." I told them to put everything back on and I'll change everything myself....it didn't occur to me to tell her you can't machine those rotors.
(I doubt they need machining anyways)

[sunrunner_pei]

Not a good idea to machine slotted/drilled rotors. It's especially not a good idea to machine the rotors on a Grand Am, as they are borderline too thin right from the start. Less material will just cut their lifespan even shorter.

As for your pad wear, you have several things against you.

#1 - 1999-2005 Grand Ams have poor pad life, period. The caliper design will put most of the force on the inboard pads, wearing them out at least 2X faster than the outboard pads.

#2 - Slotted rotors eat brake pads faster than smooth rotors. It's actually listed as a 'benefit' of slotted rotors, as it cleans off any glazing on the pads each time you brake.

#3 - Greenstuff pads are a 'sport' pad, and while they provide better brake response than most, they will also wear out faster.

Best think you can do is regular brake service. GM calls this their 'brakethrough' service. Remove the calipers, and clean them well. Clean the brass clips with emery paper. Remove any excess built-up brake dust from the slots in the pads. Remove, clean, and re-grease the caliper slide pins, then re-install. This will ensure that the calipers slide properly, and that the pads don't remain in contact with the rotors.

Lastly, you might want to consider your driving habits. Braking at the end of a 1/4 mile run is VERY hard on your brakes. As well, driving habits off the track can play a role too. Only you know how it is you drive, however. You have decide for yourself if your driving habits are to blame, at least partially.

I run Greenstuff pads with RSM slotted rotors, so you aren't alone. Mine have about 25,000 KM on them right now. I wouldn't count on getting any more than 40,000 KM out of Greenstuff pads.

[slowbird]

Yea...I guess you can call my driving habits "Spirited" :P

I'll pick-up some new Pads and fix everything up.

When I replaced the Rotors and Pads in June, I spent a lot of time cleaning the Calipers and greasing everything up very well.

I don't see any reason to replace the rotors though. They are good Aftermarket rotors.

I'll check them anyways.

Thanks Shawn.

[sunrunner_pei]

Anytime, Matt. :) Unless you have serious vibration from warped rotors, I wouldn't replace them either.

I love my Greenstuff pads. I have never had better brake feel then with them. However if lifespan is an important issue, you may want to consider switching to a carbon-metallic pad like Performance Friction, etc. I ran Performance Friction C-M pads on my '99 with slotted rotors and got over 50,000 KMs on the pads with no problem at all. But they didn't feel nearly as nice as the Greenstuffs.

[slowbird]

Yea...looks like I got some shopping to do.

[SE2000]

Those pads are like ultra high performance tires. work great, don't last long? If they wore roughly evenly, you don't have a problem unless you drive with your foot on the pedal. small price to pay for all that spirited driving

[Gimli]

Originally posted by sunrunner_pei
However if lifespan is an important issue, you may want to consider switching to a carbon-metallic pad like Performance Friction, etc.

Actually, if pad life is an issue my suggestion would be to switch to good plain rotors but keep the GreenStuff pads. I've run the GreenStuff before (and RedStuff now, never again on the red...) and they behave more than adequately with plain rotors, better then I would ever need.

Slotted/drilled rotors will eat through any kind of pad you put on, that's what they're designed for.

[slowbird]

Yea...I was thinking about switching to just plain blank rotors....or maybe go half way and just get the slotted ones.

But regarding pads...I have to agree that I really like the Greenstuff Pads.

When the mechanic showed me the pads I was dumbstruck...they are very worn.....yet I haven't heard the Squealing/Warning pin. I guess I'm almost there.

I've been babying the brakes since...I'll see if anywhere has the EBC's cheaper then Summit and then I'll order them in.

[sickem]

whats the difference between EBC green stuf andEBC red stuff with factory rotors <--- if that mattters

[sunrunner_pei]

Originally posted by sickem
whats the difference between EBC green stuf andEBC red stuff with factory rotors <--- if that mattters

The compounds they're made of. Red will wear out much faster and cause MUCH more dust than the green. But braking performance is increased again.

[slowbird]

Don't the Red need to be warmed up a bit before they are 100% effective?

[sunrunner_pei]

That's what I have heard, but I haven't used 'em personally to say for sure. Ben (Gimli) has, and he said he didn't have to. :)

[slowbird]

Oh...cool.

It's great to learn...

CAUSE KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!!

[Gimli]

Originally posted by slowbird
Don't the Red need to be warmed up a bit before they are 100% effective?

They do but even at whatever efficiency they are at when cold they're still better then stock (and the greenstuff, if only slightly) and I haven't really seen a difference between cold and warm, which means my driving style really doesn't stress them enough to make a difference. As Shawn said though they are a bitch on dust.

You should try Canadian Tire for the pads, they carry everything keystone carries (including EBC). All you need is the part number (which you can find online at www.driverfx.ca, keystones web site) and ask for a quote at the parts counter.

[slowbird]

Sweet...thanks for the Advice. :)

[MantaGreen97]

Were all the pads worn badly or were some worse than others?

One time I had one side of my car (driver's side) ripping through pads like nothing... Pax side was okay but the driver's side was messed up. I use PF Z-rated pads but even with those the driver's side got chewed through pretty quick. I had to replace the pads on that side with some el-cheapo pads from CT (Jasper FTL, lol). And those ones went faster than the PF, lol. The passenger side? Still okay! (Yeah I was using different pads on the same axle at that point but it wasn't too bad).

Later, when it got warm I swapped all the front pads for some Certified ones (PF ones are not easy to get in Canada) and I emailed PF who said to me that the rotor on that side had to be warped. I replied saying there was no vibration or pulsation and the rotor surface was visually fine (the brakes actually felt fine) but the guy insisted that the rotor was slightly warped. So I replaced the one side with a plain "service" rotor on the one side (so now I had the same pads but different rotors on the axle, lol) and sure enough the pad eating problem on the driver's side went away...

I'm back with PF Z-rated pads and a new set of PowerStop rotors and everything seems to be okay so far (*knocks on wood*), but yeah I hate the braking system on this car, lol. At least you have a 99+ ;) Which I guess has it's own problems with the brakes though...

I'd also recommend the PF pads but for 99+ cars they only have the normal CarbonMetallic pads, not the CM Z-Rated which are a little more severe duty/higher performance. They're pretty tough to get though, PF has a pretty thin distribution network in Canada so I always have to get them from the US.

As for machining the rotors you actually can machine slotted or drilled (or slotted/drilled) rotors. The person doing it just has to know what they are doing. PowerStop rotors come with a sheet that tells you how to machine them if it's ever necessary, I'm pretty sure other companies (Brembo, Power Slot, etc.) have sheets like that too. Typically smaller cuts are made more than once on the lathe, rather than one larger cut...

[slowbird]

I think it was the passenger side Pad....he didn't mention if it was both.

I'll check when I replace them all.


Gimli: That link you posted doesn't list EBC Pads...maybe I'm doing something wrong?

[Gimli]

You gotta go into "search by brand" then select EBC. Their search engines sucks big time.

The regular EBC catalog will have the right part number in it too:
http://www.ebcbrakes.com/Assets/USA%202006.6%20FINAL%2028.09.06.xls

[MantaGreen97]

If it's just the one side, I'd seriously look into replacing that rotor or having it machined. If it's both it could be both rotors or another problem... I'd be wary of the rotors though--I thought the same thing--"the rotors are fine, not too old and there's no vibration..." 99+ cars are notorious for warping rotors, right?

I used to have Roto-Tec rotors a long time ago (with the same PF pads). Never really had any pad problems but the slots on the rotors actually wore off them over time (I guess the pad compound was hard enough to take it to the rotors, lol!).

Another thing you might want to do is a full brake fluid flush if you haven't done one in a while. I'd recommend ATE SuperBlue/TYP200 for maximum price/performance, but if you can't find that, the Valvoline SynPower brake fluid is easy to get and nearly as good.

Also don't go throgh CT for Keystone stuff, I found it's cheaper to go through driverfx.ca directly instead of having CT middle man you and increase the prices. You won't end up paying any additional tax/duty buying from driverfx.ca (because Keystone has operations warehouses in both Canada and the US) but the prices of things as well as shipping are a little higher from driverfx.ca (as opposed to driverfx.com) for this reason. In any case I'd stay away from CT for a Keystone order--it's simple enough to order from driverfx.ca.

[slowbird]

Thanks for all the Advice guys.

Hopefully I can get this all done soon. I'll take pics of the destroyed pads.

[slowbird]

So I changed my pads...cleaned up the calipers real nice. I got a pair of HAWK HPS pads in for slightly cheaper then I could have gotten the EBC Greenstuffs. Plus with all the discussions regarding EBC versus Hawk I thought it'd be a fun experiment.

Drivers side Inner Pad seems to have more wear then then passenger side inner pads. Both inner pads are crazy worn though. Especially compared to the Outer pads.

Looks like I was just about to start digging into the warning pins.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/2723/pads0082ol.th.jpg (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pads0082ol.jpg)
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/1795/pads0070lb.th.jpg (http://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pads0070lb.jpg)
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8636/pads0032je.th.jpg (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pads0032je.jpg)
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/4088/pads0022sn.th.jpg (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pads0022sn.jpg)
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9191/pads0061kh.th.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pads0061kh.jpg)
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9329/pads0057yl.th.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pads0057yl.jpg)
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9602/pads0044zc.th.jpg (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pads0044zc.jpg)
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6923/pads0011xs.th.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pads0011xs.jpg)

[MantaGreen97]

Those pads seem alright to me, LOL. Well no not really and the wear is noticeably uneven, but you should have seen the pads I took off my car when that rotor was eating up pads! I was very very close to complete metal on metal. At one edge of the pad it was worn to the metal while the other edge was not far behind :lol: I was actually well into the squealer--what I did was just bend back the squealer on that side with a pliers so I didn't have to hear it LOL.

I think you could have kept driving for a while... I mean I dunno how long until brake failure but :lol: j/k definitely better to be safe with the brakes. I remember when mine were worn really bad on the one side I would drive around (city driving) with the car in 2nd mostly and I'd also pull the parking brake to let the rear brakes slow down the car a bit LOL. And let me tell you those rear drums do not slow down the car much at all! hahaha. Luckily the car always stopped fine and I replaced the pads before I died LOL.

Back to your pads, for like 6 months that is some bad wear. I had another thought, are you sure the rear brakes are doing their job? Because I know if the rear brakes are not working right, that is also another popular cause of premature front brake failure.

[SE2000]

Those pads don't show any real problem to me. The wear seems perfectly normal and those pads have a lot of life left in them. I could get 10k mi. out of those. I would have swapped inner and outers for longer life but would not have been worried. You use pads that have a shorter life and probally use them hard. I would not worry. Single piston calipers will always wear like that in normal driving

[sunrunner_pei]

I agree, they're not worn out yet, and still have some decent life left. 1999-2005 Grand Ams always wear the inner pad considerably faster than the outer.

[slowbird]

I'd wouldn't say that they are still good for many miles...but they were definitley NOT worn enough to damage the rotors.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9555/padsdiag4zp.th.jpg (http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=padsdiag4zp.jpg)

Pad 1 in the pic is pretty worn. It's thin as you can see.

Pad 2 is almost down to the squealer.

Pad 3 is an outer pad and has LOTS of life left...

Well...I guess that's why I didn't hear any squealing when I touched the brakes. They were still okay.

The Hawks seems pretty nice....I can't say just yet cause I'm comparing them to worn EBC's.

[SE2000]

Any pad above the backing plate is technically good since you don't have rivets. I get at least 40k mi. 80km from pads so that's what I go by.
Did you lube the pins?

[slowbird]

I cleaned and lubed up everything very thoroughly.