Belt Squeak

[Asmegin]

A few days ago my belt started to squeak. I've read through all the posts here on this board, but I just want to get specific info for my situation.

I did a visual inspection and the belt looks perfect. No cracks at all. The back is kind of shiny though (does that matter)?

I'm not very knoweldgable with cars so I'm not sure what is considered normal...but everything looked good.

One thing I noticed is the tensioner (?) thing was vibrating side to side a bit. Is that normal?

Also, when I turn on the air inside, it slowly goes away. The squeak will go from once every rotation to once every 2, then 3 then none at all. Then it comes back after 15 seconds (with the air on). It also comes back right away when I turn the air off.

After doing this a few times (turning the air on, waiting for the squeak to start up again, then turning if off and on again), it gets a lot quieter and less consistant (with or without the air on)

Also, fan setting 1 and 2 don't work.

From what I've read, it is the A/C Compressor, right? That just controls the air conditioning? Is it easy to replace? Do I need to?

[rys99grandam]

The Tensioner does vibrate a little, according to 3 grand ams I Work on.

You may want to take a look at the harmonic balance aka crank pulley and see what she is doing, wether she is straight, or woobling. Friends Malbiu with 45k crank pulley was shaking mad, causing sqeaky.

The fan setting not working is a common issue, has something to due with a fuse blowing or something like that. Search for it on the forums.

Squeaking can be a hard think to pin point sometime.

[rixGAphx]

Belt Squeak:

This results from the rubber sliding across the metal pulleys, like rubber tires squeeling across slick concrete in a gas station lot.

The belt will squeak for many different reasons:
* Water on the pulleys and belt, splashed from a puddle or dripping from the coolant system.
* Stretched belt, no longer gripping tightly enough.
* Glazed belt ('shininess') with insufficient friction.
* High-resistance accessory (bad bearing or such, in the AC compressor, alternator, waterpump, PSpump, etc) requiring more energy than the pulley-belt can transfer.
* Wobbly pulley(s)
* Weak tensioner spring, no longer strong enough to tighten the belt.
* Broken tensioner.

Cold rubber is harder and has less friction than warm rubber, so a cold belt slips more than a warm belt (after the car has warmed).

When you 'inspect' a belt, you look for signs of damage (age cracks, glazed surfaces, frayed cords, etc.);
AND you need to test the belt for tension (by pushing-down on the belt midway between two pulleys) and look for wobbly pulleys.

On the GA V6, the tensioner and its pulley should NOT move any while the engine runs.
Not up-n-down bouncing;
Not side-to-side wobble.
It is DEFINITELY not supposed to vibrate, so it is prolly time to replace it, as well as the 'glazed' belt.

Mebbe use a mechanic's stethoscope first, to identify the source of the squeel.
* * *

Do a 'search' for Heater Fan Resistor; that is what has burned-out on your car, and is preventing the fan from running on speeds 1 and 2; 3 and 4 will fail soon.
It's an absolute PITA to change.

Hope this helps,
-Rick

[rys99grandam]

So the Tensioner is not support to have ANY MOVEMENT? I would think it would have a slim movement because of what it is.

If no movement then the case then mine has been bad for a year plus now. Guess Ill replace it. I guess this would explain why when I engage the AC, the extra power required causes mad vibration, and squealing noises.

[99GrandAMSE]

... to determine if it is the belt that is giving the noise, you can use an old trick, BUT YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ... basically, take a normal bar of soap and with the engine running CAREFULLY (and I repeat C-A-R-E-F-U-L-L-Y) rub the soap on to the belt (on the top side, edges and underneath slightly if you can do it without getting too close to everything 'moving') ... anyway, if the belt is the culprit the noise will go away ... then, you can simply change the belt or try some belt rejuvenator to see if it works ... the Grand Am is known for having squeaky belts which is why lots of belt use the Gatorback line ... personally, I used to but when it started to squeak as well, I went back to 'normal' belts and hit it with rejuvenator spray every once and a while ... so far, so good :)

[Asmegin]

I will inspect it more this weekend but here is what I've found:

Spueaking stops when car has been driven for 20+ minutes. It starts again when I press the gas, and stops when I stop pressing the gas. Turning the air on (Even 1 or 2, which don't work), it gets a lot quieter but doesn't completely go away.

[99GrandAMSE]

... sounds to me like the belt but some additional investigation will make sure :)

[Asmegin]

Okay...it's NOT the tensioner that was shaking...it was THIS thing:



I also can hear a seperate squeak from that area...

http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/968/thisthingka8.jpg

[rixGAphx]

OH HOLY SHIAT!!!! :eek: :eek:

Do NOT even Start the engine again 'til that's fixed!!!

It's the Harmonic Balancer, and it's FAILED, and it will soon destroy much expensive stuff inside the engine if you even turn-over the engine!!!

Hang loose while I edit this post and return in about 20 minutes!!
-Rick

[Asmegin]

Rick...you're like Santa Clause....delivering bad news right on time! :)

[rixGAphx]

The Harmonic Balancer (HB) is a precision balnced mass that dampens crankshaft vibrations.

It has a steel core that attaches to the nose of the crankshaft with a 'key' and a big-assed bolt.
It has an outer steel ring with spokes and the pulley that is preciesly balanced.
These two steel parts are joined by a poured-in-pace hunk of rubber.

The rubber in your HB has cracked, allowing the outer ring to wobble.
So as your iron crankshaft spins, the vibrations are gradually destroying the molecular structure of the iron.

And, the outer steel ring of the HB is in danger of FLYING OFF at any second, with much shrapnel flying around the engine bay, thru the hood, thru the firewall, etc.
I have seen drag engines loose their HB's. Very impressive :eek:

This is the most-critical failure an engine can encounter IMO, much worse than a blown head or no oil pressure.
So don't start this engine ever again until the HB is replaced.
Disconnect the battery, you aren't going anywhere.
* * *

Now, what to do:

Have a beer and relax, no permanent damage has been done yet.

Find a reputable mechanic, and have the car towed to his shop.
Most shops have a favorite tower who will pick-up your car and put their bill on the shop's ticket.
Or if you have AAA, they will tow you to a shop for free (but tip the guy).

Have the shop replace the HB with a new one, along with a new serp belt.
I *think* your tensioner assembly is fine, but the mechanic can investigate and let you know.
* * *

As you know, there is very little room to work in there, and removing/replacing an HB is no piece of cake.
An experienced DIY can do it, but there are tricks involved and some hefty tools are needed.

I know this isn't happy news, but at least the condition was caught before major destruction ensued.
You were right to keep pursuing advice.

Good luck,
-Rick

[Asmegin]

Doh!!

Thanks though.......

How much will this cost me?

[rixGAphx]

Parts:
At Checker/Shucks/Kragen:
* HB - $58
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductList.aspx?parttype=1269&ptset=A&searchfor=Harmonic+Balancer

* Belt - $42
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductList.aspx?parttype=1063&ptset=A&searchfor=Serpentine+Belts

* Tensioner - $35
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductList.aspx?parttype=819&ptset=A&searchfor=Belt+Tensioner+Assembly

A shop will buy more expensive parts from NAPA, and I don't have their prices; figure 40% more, plus tax.
* * *

Labor:
I haven't done an HB on any FWD car, and I don't have my Haynes handy to read the procedure.

I *think* the HB can be removed with the engine still in the car.
If so, it should take a skilled mechanic about 2 hours, at $80 each.
Add another half-hour for R&R of the Tensioner while he's there.

If there is absolutely no room for the HB to be removed, then about another 4 HOURS must be ADDED for the mechanic to disconnect and lower the engine, and then reinstall it.

You may also need motor mounts (there are 3 different mounts) at about $30 each; + 1/2 hour installation each for two of them, and a full hour for the tranny mount.

These are just my best guesses.
A shop will charge what they will.
Get firm estimates first by calling around to a couple shops.
All shops will lookup the procedure ("R&R Harmonic Balancer, 3.4 engine with AC, '02 Grand Am") in the 'Flat-Rate Manual' (or whatever it's called these days).
The FRM states exactly how many hours/tenths it takes an experienced mechanic to do any given procedure.
Whether it actually takes twice that or half that or exactly that, they will still charge what it was *supposed* to cost according to FRM.

Good luck,
-Rick

[bdlitzne]

This is a very bad idea. Unless you fingers, hand, and arm mean nothing to you.

Bern


Originally posted by 99grandamse
... to determine if it is the belt that is giving the noise, you can use an old trick, BUT YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ... basically, take a normal bar of soap and with the engine running CAREFULLY (and I repeat C-A-R-E-F-U-L-L-Y) rub the soap on to the belt (on the top side, edges and underneath slightly if you can do it without getting too close to everything 'moving') ... anyway, if the belt is the culprit the noise will go away ... then, you can simply change the belt or try some belt rejuvenator to see if it works ... the Grand Am is known for having squeaky belts which is why lots of belt use the Gatorback line ... personally, I used to but when it started to squeak as well, I went back to 'normal' belts and hit it with rejuvenator spray every once and a while ... so far, so good :)

[99GrandAMSE]

Originally posted by bdlitzne
This is a very bad idea. Unless you fingers, hand, and arm mean nothing to you.

Bern

Not a bad idea at all ... it is a little 'unsafe', sure, but so is driving the car in the first place ... it you are careful and watch what you are doing, like I explained, there is nothing wrong with this method ... more specifically, it is a procedure many amateurs and licenced mechanics use :)

[99GrandAMSE]

On topic ... wow ... I never considered your noise as being the HB being you said that you thought it was either the belt or the tensioner ... that sucks!!

[Asmegin]

So I took it to a shop....the guy checked it out and said the shaky crank pulley was normal and it just needed a new belt.

So he replaced it and the squeaking has stopped!

[99GrandAMSE]

Cool it is fixed :)

[Bouchie11982]

Originally posted by rixGAphx


Cold rubber is harder and has less friction than warm rubber, so a cold belt slips more than a warm belt (after the car has warmed).



im bringing this back from a coupel weeks ago....

my belt started squeaking because of cold weather as well....this qutoe, does this mean the belt is just cold? but the squeaking doesnt go away for a good 20-25 minutes. my father wanted to take my motor apart to put a new belt on....but i don't trust him 100% with that. how much do you think a dealership would charge to change the belt?

[rixGAphx]

Originally posted by Bouchie11982
my belt started squeaking because of cold weather as well....
this quote, does this mean the belt is just cold?Yeah, that's what it means.

but the squeaking [of MY belt] doesn't go away for a good 20-25 minutes. I would say your squeaking isn't directly related to the cold, but rather to a 4-yr old belt with about 50k miles on it.

my father wanted to take my motor apart to put a new belt on....but i don't trust him 100% with that. Well, the process isn't quite THAT drastic.
But you DO hafta lift/support the motor from below, so you can remove the motor-mount bolts.
That allows you to slip the old belt out and slip the new one in.Just one of the joys of a GA V6 engine :roll: :D :D

Altogether about 1.5, mebbe 2 hrs DIY first time, with a Haynes book and basic handtools.
About $40 for the belt itself??

how much do you think a dealership would charge to change the belt? The DEALER shop rate is prolly $90-100 per hour, so mebbe $190??

Most reputable shops will be about $80/hr labor; call around, mebbe somebody will do it for only 1-hr.

For the time being, go to the Checker/AutoZone, and buy a small (4 oz?) can of spray stuff called 'Belt Dressing'.
This is the ONLY stuff to use on a belt; it makes the rubber grip the steel pulleys BETTER, so they don't slip and squeak.
(Oil, grease, silicone, and soap lubricate the rubber, so the belt slips 100% but makes no longer makes noise.)

Apply the Belt Dressing per can instructions.
If your belt is cracked and crazed like alligator skin, then nothing much will save it.
But if it's just kinda 'glazed' over in spots, then the Belt Dressing will help a lot.

Good luck,
-Rick