converting my 2004 grand am.

[michaelt1488]

What converstions do i need to make to my 04 grand am so that it will be able to run on e85?

[00SilverGA]

check this site out. Here is a little preview of what the artilce says.

IS IT POSSIBLE TO CONVERT A VEHICLE THAT WAS DESIGNED FOR GASOLINE TO OPERATE ON E85?

Yes. However, there are no conversions or after-market parts that have been certified by the EPA as meeting the standards to maintain clean exhaust emissions. Technically speaking, converting a vehicle that was designed to operate on unleaded gasoline only to operate on another form of fuel is a violation of the federal law and the offender may be subject to significant penalties. No after-market conversion company has successfully certified an E85 kit that would allow a gasoline vehicle to operate on 85 percent ethanol.


The rest of the artilce is good, so I suggest you read it.

[Brandon]

darnit what site?! :lol: i want to see this article!

[Nighthawk243]

Why?

There really is no outstanding advantages of E85 that would warrant the money and time spent in converting.

It would require you to practically redesign the entire 3400 V6 Engine in order to let it run E85 without destroying the engine. The 3400 V6 and other unleaded-designed engines were not meant to run anything higher than a 10% Ethanol blend (E85 on the other hand, is 70-85% Ethanol). In order to keep the engine from being destroyed, you would need to eliminate any and all bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system, replacing them with parts that would be able to handle the electrically conductive fuel. The parts required for a conversion are not available for the 3400 V6 or any non FFV-designed motors, meaning you would need to manufacture these parts on your own. Unfortunately, this massive fabrication could end up causing you problems with emissions testing.

In addition E85 is not nearly as efficient as standard fuel. Also, it is not widely available except in certain areas.

Simply put, the entire thing would require you to practically engineer a large part of the conversion, and fail to yield any real benefit that would make the effort worth it.

[01_ga]

You can accually run about 40% percent Ethanol in your car if you'd like, and it won't hurt the engine. I know someone that works at an Ethanol plant would dump a couple gallons of pure Ethanol a week into his car, and has been running it since. He drove a Cavy. So if you want pump some E-85 in then make sure you pump more unleaded in and it should mix fine, no worries.

[michaelt1488]

Originally posted by Nighthawk243
Why?

There really is no outstanding advantages of E85 that would warrant the money and time spent in converting.

It would require you to practically redesign the entire 3400 V6 Engine in order to let it run E85 without destroying the engine. The 3400 V6 and other unleaded-designed engines were not meant to run anything higher than a 10% Ethanol blend (E85 on the other hand, is 70-85% Ethanol). In order to keep the engine from being destroyed, you would need to eliminate any and all bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system, replacing them with parts that would be able to handle the electrically conductive fuel. The parts required for a conversion are not available for the 3400 V6 or any non FFV-designed motors, meaning you would need to manufacture these parts on your own. Unfortunately, this massive fabrication could end up causing you problems with emissions testing.

In addition E85 is not nearly as efficient as standard fuel. Also, it is not widely available except in certain areas.

Simply put, the entire thing would require you to practically engineer a large part of the conversion, and fail to yield any real benefit that would make the effort worth it.

where did you get your information? Because I have never heard anytihng about that. And I live in Missouri so e85 is very easy to find at gas stations around.

[03GT-SC/T]

E85 really isnt that available around here, but we all might as well face it, one of these days we are gonna have to worry about converting, its starting to catch on. I sell new chevys, and about two out of three people I sell trucks and SUV's to want the E85 capable vehicles.

[bballr4567]

What I hate about E85 is that its eventually going to be more expensive then gas because there is only so much land to grow corn on.

Simple supply and demand. Right now demand is growing and is still smaller then supply. Itll flip flop in a few years.

[gectek]

alot of the high perf guys use the E85 and run a special tune because it has a very high natural octane rating of 109 or 110 IIRC and is cheaper the high octane race fuel and is less volatile. but E85 does not have the BTu factor that gasoline has, therefore you have to use bigger injectors, more volume on the pump and prob even more press in the fuel rail. also the flex fuel pumps are even more expensive than the regular ones if you can imagine that. spy off gagt is looking at an E85 tune for his car, everyone calls him stupid(and i think they are right) but he is going to try it because he has been suckered in as well i think. it is just too much to have to worry about. and trying to get one worked on that you made a hybrid of...not easy at all

but if you have the money and time i say...give it to me dangit, instead of blowing it on a corn powered car...lol

[gectek]

Originally posted by bballr4567
What I hate about E85 is that its eventually going to be more expensive then gas because there is only so much land to grow corn on.

Simple supply and demand. Right now demand is growing and is still smaller then supply. Itll flip flop in a few years.

it wont be that, you will find the OPEC of the midwest...lol

[TA^Guy]

Originally posted by Nighthawk243
Why?

There really is no outstanding advantages of E85 that would warrant the money and time spent in converting.

In addition E85 is not nearly as efficient as standard fuel. Also, it is not widely available except in certain areas.

Oh no? Yes, milage maybe be less with E85 because it's stored energy is less than that of gasoline. However the cost is slightly less so it balances out the incressed consumption.

E85 has a Octane rating simular to that of 100 octane fuel, meaning if you wanted to seriosuly modify a motor with some big boost or high compression E85 might be something to consider.

The biggest benifit to E85? No not cleaner air, screw them hippies. It's that is supports farmers and US economics.

:D

A car designed to run on gasoline can run E85, however it won't be effecient. There can be a few adjustment to the computer made so it runs better however it won't operate like a FlewFuel motor would.

I say it's not worth the conversion, but if your in the market for a new vehicle and they offer E85 near you, purchase a flex fuel vehicle.

[Nighthawk243]

I was not ruling out E85 entirely, I was just stating that it really isn't worth trying to convert a unleaded gasoline vehicle into a FFV. He'd be better off just buying a FFV, as they were engineered from the start to use E85.

[RazorDX]

Personally, I may just be a paranoid conspirist or whatever, but I think Ethanol is meant to fail. It isn't practical or sustainable, and the amount of corn required is astounding. It would make sense that "big oil" companies (who have been known to pull shit like this before) would secretly promote ethanol to shatter people's hope in alternative fuels.

However... biodiesel can be made from any oil-yielding crop or even animal fats. Corn takes far too long to grow... but does anyone have an aquarium? Those who do know how long it takes algae to grow back... just a matter of days. Some "species" of algae yield 50% oil. There was actually a really great article I read about it.

Oh, and no modifications are necessary on any diesel engine built after 1992.

Here's a great article I found while researching for a 102 paper.
http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html

The only downside is the difficult of finding a diesel engine.

[00SilverGA]

Originally posted by Brandon
darnit what site?! :lol: i want to see this article!

Haha sorry guys. I forgot to post the link but here it is.

http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/conversion.php

[gectek]

well u can also run a diesel engine off of grease, and transmission fluid, and it burns cleaner without the particulates. also corn does not take long to grow, who told u that. and as for land, there is more than enough land in texas alone to grow enough corn to run almost all the vehilces here with E85. the only problem is, with the regular internal combustion gas engine being refined basically every day, the "future" of cars will not be in E85 as much as regular gasoline, or any hybrid there of, because even the hybrid cars pollute. how many factories do they think it would take to sell the equipment and modifications to convert all the others to any new type of fuel or power plant, and they still have to burn coal, or use fossil fuels or any other type of pollutant to make the fuel or parts or plants for the cars in the first place. in the end the earth has the final say in what happens and what doesnt. alot of people dont know that there is a hole in the ozone above the north pole, that covers the entire region, and it is there due to natural occurences. so i think that in the end we really have little to say about what goes on with the planet around us...sorry Al Gore

[DontPassTheFence]

dude yea, its just 105 octane - like 20% of e85 is regular `ol GASOLINE, up to 70% of it is ethanol, and then trace amounts of other random stuff I have forgotten the names of... Anyone CAN run this in a gasoline engine, but you will need to tune your engine accordingly... also I dont think your catalytic converter will be very pleased with you either.

[Nighthawk243]

Originally posted by DontPassTheFence
dude yea, its just 105 octane - like 20% of e85 is regular `ol GASOLINE, up to 70% of it is ethanol, and then trace amounts of other random stuff I have forgotten the names of... Anyone CAN run this in a gasoline engine, but you will need to tune your engine accordingly... also I dont think your catalytic converter will be very pleased with you either.

In addition to the cat, your fuel system won't like you much.

[99blackSE]

Id imagine you could get similar power and mileage with a Direct Injection turbo motor running E85 compared to say, the LA1 running normal gas.

[TA^Guy]

Originally posted by RazorDX
The only downside is the difficult of finding a diesel engine.

Yeah that and Diesel fuel too.

Only a hand full of fuel stations in the city sell diesel, it's more typical to see it out on the highways or in the country.

Actually it's not oil companies pushing for E85, it's auto manufactures, namely GM being a huge part in leading the Ethenol push for the future.

In the US farms have been on a huge decress of profit in the past 20 years, especially smaller farms. US goverment funding and a promise of a huge long term demand will bring the farming industry into much better economical standings. Go take a look at the cost for stock for Corn or Ethenol, it's huge, much higher than it was even a year ago, and it's still on the rise.

It's a win/win situation. Hippies have their clean air, US ecconomy grows, ignorant penny pinchers think they are saving money, high performance enthusiast will have inexpensive 100 octane fuel at the pump, auto manufactures get the government off their butts about protecting the enviroment.

[gectek]

Originally posted by 99blackSE
Id imagine you could get similar power and mileage with a Direct Injection turbo motor running E85 compared to say, the LA1 running normal gas.

well i dont think so, because with the DI engines they have to run leaner to make emissions and keep pressures down, as high as 35:1, and they need the turbo, so no it wouldnt just work like that

[RazorDX]

Originally posted by TA^Guy
Yeah that and Diesel fuel too.

Only a hand full of fuel stations in the city sell diesel, it's more typical to see it out on the highways or in the country.

Actually it's not oil companies pushing for E85, it's auto manufactures, namely GM being a huge part in leading the Ethenol push for the future.

In the US farms have been on a huge decress of profit in the past 20 years, especially smaller farms. US goverment funding and a promise of a huge long term demand will bring the farming industry into much better economical standings. Go take a look at the cost for stock for Corn or Ethenol, it's huge, much higher than it was even a year ago, and it's still on the rise.

It's a win/win situation. Hippies have their clean air, US ecconomy grows, ignorant penny pinchers think they are saving money, high performance enthusiast will have inexpensive 100 octane fuel at the pump, auto manufactures get the government off their butts about protecting the enviroment.

Both have pros and cons. I know more about biodiesel because of a recent research assigment, but one of the biggest solutions that biodiesel will bring is for commercial transport. Those big semis you blow past on the freeway aren't getting the kind of fuel economy you are, and that's where a great majority of the fossile fuels in transportation are used. The fact that those bigass tractor-trailors can readily accept biodiesel makes it a very viable solution. It has a premium... it will cost roughly 10c more per gallon until it is completely established, but it gives you more life and dependability out of a diesel engine. Once it is established, no company will pay more to kill their engine and harm the environment. Tax incentives should more than make up for the added fuel cost, when coupled with reduced maintanance costs. Alot of fleets are already using B20 blends with great results.

I think it's very possible that E85 will replace gasoline, but it has no chance of replacing diesel fuel for fleets.

[TA^Guy]

Originally posted by RazorDX
I think it's very possible that E85 will replace gasoline, but it has no chance of replacing diesel fuel for fleets.
In no comment did I see anyone mention E85 replacing diesel.

E85 is mostly for passenger cars, it doesn't have anywhere near the same energy that diesel does. Infact it even has less than 100 octane gasoline.

Of corse those big trucks don't get the same fuel ecconomy I do. Shoot I hook up my encolsed trailer to my truck and I lose about 6mpg. A diesel engine gets better miles pre gallon than a simular gasoline engine in the same vehicle. Not sure if BioDeisels get better ecconomy or worst, but I do know fuel mialge with E85 can be up to 20% less, but that is common since there is less enegy in the fuel and why they charge about a $1 less at the pump.
Originally posted by gectek
well u can also run a diesel engine off of grease, and transmission fluid, and it burns cleaner without the particulates. also corn does not take long to grow, who told u that. and as for land, there is more than enough land in texas alone to grow enough corn to run almost all the vehilces here with E85. the only problem is, with the regular internal combustion gas engine being refined basically every day, the "future" of cars will not be in E85 as much as regular gasoline, or any hybrid there of, because even the hybrid cars pollute. how many factories do they think it would take to sell the equipment and modifications to convert all the others to any new type of fuel or power plant, and they still have to burn coal, or use fossil fuels or any other type of pollutant to make the fuel or parts or plants for the cars in the first place. in the end the earth has the final say in what happens and what doesnt. alot of people dont know that there is a hole in the ozone above the north pole, that covers the entire region, and it is there due to natural occurences. so i think that in the end we really have little to say about what goes on with the planet around us...sorry Al Gore
E85 > Hybred.

Just wait until all these tree huggers realize on 5 years that the batteries on their hybred cars need to be replace and cost them thousands of dollars more. And then they need to dispose of them/recycle them. Poluting right there, not to mention the engery it takes to make them.
Originally posted by DontPassTheFence
dude yea, its just 105 octane - like 20% of e85 is regular `ol GASOLINE, up to 70% of it is ethanol, and then trace amounts of other random stuff I have forgotten the names of... Anyone CAN run this in a gasoline engine, but you will need to tune your engine accordingly... also I dont think your catalytic converter will be very pleased with you either.
15% of E85 is equal to 85 octane gasoline. 85% is ethanol hense the "E85" name.

Also I don't see why it would effect the catalytic converter, ethenol burns cleaner, less hydrocarbons than gasoline, the main reason for it's developement. A cleaner running car will have a converter last longer. It's not like your buring dirty motor oil.
Originally posted by Nighthawk243
In addition to the cat, your fuel system won't like you much.
I think you're confusing Ethenol with Methenol.

[RazorDX]

Originally posted by TA^Guy
[B]In no comment did I see anyone mention E85 replacing diesel.

E85 is mostly for passenger cars, it doesn't have anywhere near the same energy that diesel does. Infact it even has less than 100 octane gasoline.

Of corse those big trucks don't get the same fuel ecconomy I do. Shoot I hook up my encolsed trailer to my truck and I lose about 6mpg. A diesel engine gets better miles pre gallon than a simular gasoline engine in the same vehicle. Not sure if BioDeisels get better ecconomy or worst, but I do know fuel mialge with E85 can be up to 20% less, but that is common since there is less enegy in the fuel and why they charge about a $1 less at the pump.


B20 blends achieve virtually the same hp, torque, and fuel economy as petrodiesel. B100 gives you a slight decrease in fuel economy, but nowhere near that of ethanol's drop from gasoline.

One source said roughly 5% lower than diesel for B100, another said 10% lower.

There are a few counties across the U.S. that are already running B20 and neat B100 blends in public school busses with great success. I think this may come to be the standard in the near future once it starts to spread a bit more.

[TA^Guy]

I see no downside to bio diesels myself.
But then again I kno wless about bio diesel than I do E85.

[RazorDX]

I'm the other way around. I know a lot about biodiesel, but I have limited information about E85. There are downsides... biodiesel gels in cold temperatures (20 degrees F I believe), so either a B5 or B20 blend should be used or leave the car parked in a semi-warm garage. Then again, heated fuel tanks are possible.