GM's crown has been removed...

[TA^Guy]

...and passed onto Toyota.

Not a surprise if you have been watching Toyota's steady and strong growth but I doubt GM will take this sitting down.

This could be nothing but good for consumers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/25/automobiles/25auto.html

[sumx4182]

Here's the deal with this whole Domestic vs. Foreign issue to me....In the upper tier of cars, i'd be happy with a domestic...the Caddies and such...those are of good quality IMHO...but Japan and the like are just better at making quality LOW PRICE vehicles...As a college student and some one who is just making my way into the professional sector, I hope to one day be able to indulge in a quality vehicle...but for now, I'm settling for something I can afford that won't nickel and dime me for 10 years. Comparing vehicles, I find there to be a big difference between cars like the G5 and Cobalt and cars like the Scion Tc, Toyota Carolla, Mazda 3 and the like. For a couple grand more, the step up in quality is well worth it, IMHO. Now if I was looking at a GP GTP, or a new G8, or a GOAT, then I'd expect the quality to be higher and the foreign automakers aren't as known for shelling out the performance vehicles in their Toyota, Mazda, Hyundai, ect, brands. Nothing's a sub for good old American muscle. But if i'm looking at an affordable vehicle that I can rely on, the quality is there in the foreign cars IMHO. Even GM used a Toyota engine in the Vibe. I know it was a joint venture, but why a Toyota engine? Maybe because GM knew that a comparable GM engine wouldn't run as long? Toyota engines are known for running forever...

[Matt95GT]

The way things were going, it does not surprise me. While my own parents used to buy Detroit vehicles, there's now 2 Toyota's in the driveway. (and quite honestly, I wouldn't be embarrassed one bit to drive my mom's new Camry SE... not the bland styling they used to have) Previous to that, middle grade Fords (disaster) and GM (not disaster, but bad enough). People are taking notice that you can get a deal on an import and it will last.

GM has a chance to respond with action... and hopefully that will be a catalyst for good things.

[RazorDX]

Originally posted by sumx4182
Here's the deal with this whole Domestic vs. Foreign issue to me....In the upper tier of cars, i'd be happy with a domestic...the Caddies and such...those are of good quality IMHO...but Japan and the like are just better at making quality LOW PRICE vehicles...As a college student and some one who is just making my way into the professional sector, I hope to one day be able to indulge in a quality vehicle...but for now, I'm settling for something I can afford that won't nickel and dime me for 10 years. Comparing vehicles, I find there to be a big difference between cars like the G5 and Cobalt and cars like the Scion Tc, Toyota Carolla, Mazda 3 and the like. For a couple grand more, the step up in quality is well worth it, IMHO. Now if I was looking at a GP GTP, or a new G8, or a GOAT, then I'd expect the quality to be higher and the foreign automakers aren't as known for shelling out the performance vehicles in their Toyota, Mazda, Hyundai, ect, brands. Nothing's a sub for good old American muscle. But if i'm looking at an affordable vehicle that I can rely on, the quality is there in the foreign cars IMHO. Even GM used a Toyota engine in the Vibe. I know it was a joint venture, but why a Toyota engine? Maybe because GM knew that a comparable GM engine wouldn't run as long? Toyota engines are known for running forever...

New emissions regulations are killing off "good old American muscle." Then what's left for the domestic market? Head over to the G6OC, and check out how many issues people are having with their brand new cars. GM isn't exactly throwing quality into their cars like they used to be known for, and Ford is doing even worse. It's alright for them though, we expected it.:lol:

[sunrunner_pei]

Originally posted by sumx4182
...Even GM used a Toyota engine in the Vibe. I know it was a joint venture, but why a Toyota engine? Maybe because GM knew that a comparable GM engine wouldn't run as long? Toyota engines are known for running forever...

Actually, the Vibe/Matrix were a joint venture. They are both on the same platform with different sheet metal. All the major components are the same. The only parts on a Vibe that are strictly GM are the battery (AC Delco) and the coolant (Dexcool). Aside from some computer programming and ALC, the car's are mechanical twins. Every component of the car is Toyota, not just the engine.

GM and Toyota have maintained this relationship through the NUMMI project for over 20 years. Look back to the FWD Chevy Nova and the Geo Prizm.


From http://www.toyota.com/about/operations/manufacturing/

New United Motor Manufacturing, Inc. (NUMMI) (http://www.toyota.com/about/operations/manufacturing/manu_location/nummi.html)
Fremont, CA
50-50 joint venture with General Motors
Produces the Toyota Tacoma, Corolla and Pontiac Vibe

http://www.nummi.com/

Just try to get a Toyota salesman to admit it. ;) :lol:

[sumx4182]

Originally posted by Matt95GT
The way things were going, it does not surprise me. While my own parents used to buy Detroit vehicles, there's now 2 Toyota's in the driveway. (and quite honestly, I wouldn't be embarrassed one bit to drive my mom's new Camry SE... not the bland styling they used to have) Previous to that, middle grade Fords (disaster) and GM (not disaster, but bad enough). People are taking notice that you can get a deal on an import and it will last.

GM has a chance to respond with action... and hopefully that will be a catalyst for good things. My family was a STRICT GM family too...my dad has since had a Mazda, and now an Acura RSX Type-S and wants a Honda S2000. I'm looking to go from my GA to possibly a Civic or Tc. My mom has a Vibe which was a 50/50 GM and Toyota...so the only true GM that will be left in our family is our 92 Astro van that has a lift in it for my grandmother's wheel chair...previous to these cars, my family had a 95 (i think) GP GTP, a Chevy Lumina, a Pontiac Sunbird, a Chevy Blazer, and Olds Bravada, two other Astro vans...so we ALWAYS bought GM...

[04alyGT]

Well the way i see it is this, GM had years upon years to fix it's quality (especially with our lim's) and they didn't do anything because it would have cost them some money to make better vehicles, so they left them alone and didn't really invest a whole lot in newer tech. Now they are getting their asses kicked and it serves them right. Now hopefully they will at least attempt to one up their competitors.
I really don't like how in the article they make it sound as if it's our responsibility to buy their crap to support their company, this one really bothers me "Wake Up America and Buy American!"
Maybe it should be changed to Wake up Gm and stop building shit.
But i guess they kind of already started that, i think the new pontiac line up should really help out sales. I'm already seeing a ton of G6's everywhere.

[RazorDX]

Yeah, I hate how they are pushing to buy American just because it's American. I'm not going to buy a Big Mac just because it's American when I have an Italian cuisine in front of me for the same price (just for comparison). If they want me to buy American, they had better give me a damn good reason.

The Corvette Z06 for example. 505hp and still 28mpg highway. THAT is what they need to do... innovate! Don't push to buy American when the "American" cars are built through outsourcing.

[Nighthawk243]

Well, don't give Toyota the crown just yet. Those numbers were just a quarterly report, not the annual.

It is the annual report that determines the rank.

[TA^Guy]

I had a huge reply typed up this morning and lost it quoting someone.

Anyhow it boils down to this, quality isn't so much where it's made, for the most part, it's who maintains it. I have just as many imports with just as many problems as people complain domestics have. I have also seen as many if not more domestic cars go well over the 200k and even 300k mark with factory drivetrain.

Recently while looking to replace our totaled GAGT I test drove alot of vehicles, new and used, import and domestic and to be honest there is alot of crap out there in both markets. I won't go in detail to refrain from a debate about certian cars/brands but the one I found with some of the better qualities is parked in my driveway, a domestic.

But don't just go off and think I'm just one of those domestic guys that won't give imports a chance. Not true. I love Subarus, and know from experience how durable they are and how much of a beating even the older ones can take. And my motorcycle I ordered right from Japan and was there the day the crate was cracked open and it rolled on American soil. In fact all three of my motorcycle have been imports.

As noted above certain brand have alliences together. Shoot since the early 70s Isuzu and GM have partnership for thier trucks. And lets not forget Toyota importing a Cheverlot into Japan from America and calling it a Toyota Cavalier. And can't foget all the Suzukis GM has had in their line up. Basically the entire "Geo" line where rebadged imports, and as Shawn mentioned the Chevrolet Nova and Prizim where rebadged Toyotas. Shoot even their brake calipers still said "Toyota" still on them. This list could go on forever... lol
Originally posted by RazorDX
Yeah, I hate how they are pushing to buy American just because it's American. I'm not going to buy a Big Mac just because it's American when I have an Italian cuisine in front of me for the same price (just for comparison). If they want me to buy American, they had better give me a damn good reason.

The Corvette Z06 for example. 505hp and still 28mpg highway. THAT is what they need to do... innovate! Don't push to buy American when the "American" cars are built through outsourcing.
I personally do not buy things because where they are made. Shoot, all these FBody guys don't buy 'American', well I guess they are since Canada is in North America still American in my eyes. I buy things for styling and what it has to offer. I personally like domestic styling better, except for the flat, plain dashboard that are now mimicing imports... YUCK boring! lol

[spike4881]

Ha! This thread takes me back...about 20 years.

Back then Japanese cars were refered as "Jap crap" and would never dethrone the big three. The offerings from Toyota, Mazda, Datsun (Nissan) and Honda were cheap on gas, rust buckets, and were only considered to be second cars usually for mom's grocery trips, while the Vista Cruiser was considered the family car.

But they got smart and decided to increase sales by doing something revolutionary - building a better product than the US would.

And here is the result.

Now the US industry is about to become on the outside, looking in. Wakey wakey...

[VanishingImage]

Actually I do think its good for customers because if Toyota does stay atop for a while then GM is going to be pushed to re-think things and its time they did. What got them to the top in the first place,thats where they need to go back to. Looking at the old classic GM's,their stuff was actually pretty nice. Seats were good size,comfy and interior was roomy,today,tight,cheap plastic pieces that break if hit to hard on accident.

This is one reason Im not a Brand loyalist. I give every car a chance to show me what it can provide. I honestly think GM needs to take a look on how Import manufactures create a balanced vehicle. Comfortable,roomy interiors and reliablity PLUS performance out of smaller motors to get better milage.

My next car is going to be an Import thats all I really have to say.

[99blackSE]

Chances are my next daily driver will be an import as well, unless I can get a good deal on a Cobalt SS maybe. The new Civic/Fit far surpasses any domestic compact out there right now imo.

I still want to pick up a Ecotec / 5 spd GA maybe for a project car but even that is disappearing in view.

[sunrunner_pei]

Originally posted by 99blackSE
Chances are my next daily driver will be an import as well, unless I can get a good deal on a Cobalt SS maybe. The new Civic/Fit far surpasses any domestic compact out there right now imo.

I still want to pick up a Ecotec / 5 spd GA maybe for a project car but even that is disappearing in view.

Yeah, but the FIT is beyond FUGLY! :puke:

[RazorDX]

It's still better than Honda's first hybrid attempt in 1999... I don't remember what it was called but it looked like pure ass.

[sumx4182]

I don't think the Fit is horrible looking...it could be a little less tall, more sleek looking...The interior is nice tho...i dig the look inside

[sunrunner_pei]

Originally posted by sumx4182
I don't think the Fit is horrible looking...it could be a little less tall, more sleek looking...The interior is nice tho...i dig the look inside

Personal opinions, right? IMO it's one of the 20 ugliest cars of all time, right up there with the Aztek, the Element and the FJ Cruiser. Bleh!

[sumx4182]

I wouldn't put it that high...it's certainly not a Corvette or a Porsche...but it's CERTAINLY not an Aztek! lol

[TA^Guy]

Originally posted by 99blackSE
Chances are my next daily driver will be an import as well, unless I can get a good deal on a Cobalt SS maybe. The new Civic/Fit far surpasses any domestic compact out there right now imo.

I still want to pick up a Ecotec / 5 spd GA maybe for a project car but even that is disappearing in view.
It's the Colbalt SS a damn good bang for the buck anyhow? I was just at the dealer yesterday looking at a fairly load red one with the Supercharger adn all the trimmings for just shy over $22,000. Sounds like a deal to me. Can you get a Honda with equal performance for the same money?

[thegeswho3]

^^^

You saw one for that price?
The local Chevy dealer here has two red ones and both have a price of over $25,000. one of them has a sticker that says $27,000! Granted they are both loaded, but I thought the only costly option was the sport package, if thats wut its called. The one that gives you Recarro seats (standard on the Ion red line, so why not on the SS?) and the LSD. Maybe my dealer is just an overcharging ass.

[TA^Guy]

Originally posted by thegeswho3
^^^

You saw one for that price?
The local Chevy dealer here has two red ones and both have a price of over $25,000. one of them has a sticker that says $27,000! Granted they are both loaded, but I thought the only costly option was the sport package, if thats wut its called. The one that gives you Recarro seats (standard on the Ion red line, so why not on the SS?) and the LSD. Maybe my dealer is just an overcharging ass.
Maybe if I'm out later I'll go snap a few photos of it and the sticker for you, it's only about a mile or so from my house.

[RazorDX]

That does sound a bit low. Around here you can see supercharged Cobalts with stickers around 30k.

[goredsox]

Originally posted by RazorDX
It's still better than Honda's first hybrid attempt in 1999... I don't remember what it was called but it looked like pure ass.

the insight...

not surprised a bit, since we now own 2 Corolla's, and they are mighty fine quality for the money...

chevy still has some mighty good design out there tho... My dad just got a job at the local Chevy dealer as a car saleman... he was telling me about the new Silverado's and he claims they are better than all the other trucks out there. and it is the only full size truck that "claims" 20+ mpg on the highway... i hate trucks but if i ever got one it would be the new Tundra with the 5.7 V8, it has like 380 hp and 420 trq!!!

getting back, GM just needs to make reliability a priority... i talked to a guy that has had his Corolla S for 3 years, he has 120,000 miles on it and all he has done is a set of tires, brakes, and oil changes every 5k... The plugs and the coolant are rated for 150k. How many chevys can say the same thing???

[RazorDX]

A guy I work with was telling me about those Silverados. They use Chevrolet's cylinder management to cut it down to I think he said 2 cylinders. 4 sounds more practical for something that big and non-aerodynamic, but who knows.

As far as reliability goes, you see a lot of really beat down Chevys running around from the 85-90 model years, and people give Chevy a bad rap for that. Truth be told, however crappy they may look (or in some cases smell), they are still driving around. You honestly don't see too many cars from that "era" from other manufacturers, aside from a few foreign ones.

[Nighthawk243]

IIRC, the Active Fuel Managment cuts it to half, which would be making the truck into a four cylinder when enabled.

A V6 engine is a three cylinder when AFM is enabled.

[bballr4567]

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070531/AUTO01/705310379/1148/rss25


Could this hurt Toyota?? Id honestly think so.

[Broder]

Originally posted by Nighthawk243
Well, don't give Toyota the crown just yet. Those numbers were just a quarterly report, not the annual.

It is the annual report that determines the rank.

I know this is an old post but your right and also Toyota is starting to have recalls for some minor and some pretty major flaws in there new cars. I can't remeber where I saw this info but I think it was Newsweek. So yeah they might be leading in sales right now but there rep for quality cars that don't have recalls is slowly going out the window. you guys talk about american cars nickle and dimeing you to death but, but compare prices for parts for an older GM Ford Or Dodge to that of say a VW toyota honda or nissan there is a big differance. My brother had a VW that was only 4 years old the warrnty was expired on it and it cost him 1200.00 for new stock brakes and rotors for that car. and I can remeber my old 74 Datsun pick up i had in High School it was $300.00 just for a small pice of wire with a QD on it for the battery from a dealer my dad and I just ended up make one our selves for like a 1.50. So think about what your gonna pay in the long run for an Import. that is unless you can afford to buy a new car every 3 + years when the thing starts wearing out and your warranty dosen't cover the repairs.


Rob

[Nighthawk243]

Yeah, My aunt had a 1990 Honda Civic Del Sol. For years she drove on shot rotors and pads because she didn't want to pay the money it cost for the brakejob. It cost her an insane amount to do it.

Meanwhile, my 1995, for the fronts it cost 275$. And that was including the cost of labor. The only reason why it didn't cost less was because it was the "Genuine GM" rotors they threw on it. Anyways, I'm going to do my own brakes next time.

[RazorDX]

I don't feel that it is like that anymore though. A friend of mine has a 2000 Toyota Celica, and it cost him a total of roughly 180 for the rotors all around, and I think about 70-80 for all of the pads. That's not bad. I'd bet it would be even less for more common Toyotas, like 4Runners or Camrys.

I've been looking at some Volkswagen parts, to see what maintenance would cost me in the long run for a TDI (my planned future car), and it's even less. Honestly, it would cost less to maintain that Volkswagen than it does to maintain my Grand Am. Since it's a TDI, the oil is more expensive, but all of the other upkeep (60k, 90k tunups, etc) come out cheaper.

[DRMALIKIA]

Originally posted by RazorDX
I don't feel that it is like that anymore though. A friend of mine has a 2000 Toyota Celica, and it cost him a total of roughly 180 for the rotors all around, and I think about 70-80 for all of the pads. That's not bad. I'd bet it would be even less for more common Toyotas, like 4Runners or Camrys.

I've been looking at some Volkswagen parts, to see what maintenance would cost me in the long run for a TDI (my planned future car), and it's even less. Honestly, it would cost less to maintain that Volkswagen than it does to maintain my Grand Am. Since it's a TDI, the oil is more expensive, but all of the other upkeep (60k, 90k tunups, etc) come out cheaper.

A lot of the price redution now days has to do with plants and infrastructure costs being state side. They don't "Import" the cars, parts, etc, they get the crap right here on our soil. Yes, somthings are still imported but they are so damn effective at moving stuff around cheaply now, it isn't an issue like it was in the 80's & 90's.

[GTSpeeder]

I don't really care that imports are said to "last longer". No matter what I'll still drive a Domestic, either a Pontiac, Dodge, or even a Ford. Most people give Ford shit, but almost everyone on my block has one and I never hear people complain about them. My Dad has had a 99 F-150 since 2000 and he's only done routine maintenance and he worked at the Ford plant, about an hour away. My mom's Windstar hasn't had any problems either besides the alternator went out after 7 years. Most of my friends drive Mustangs, Rangers and other pick-up trucks and they love them. Of course I know a ton of people with GMs and they're good 'ole reliable vehicles too. True, they may not last as long as the imports, but I'd drive one because I'm proud of American automobiles. Hopefully GM turns the table soon so Toyota isn't taking over the market anymore.

That's my 2 cents...and ya a kid with a GMC product just stuck up Ford! Bet you won't see that everyday.

[Nighthawk243]

Dodge is not really a true Domestic anymore. Older ones were, but now its owned by Germany's DiamlerChrystler AG.

Thats why the "Big 3" are now known as the "Big 2.5".


As far as Ford goes, my 1988 Escort ate alternators like candy, not to mention the A/C didnt work (but then again, the GA's isn't working at the moment either... damn), and it broke down frequently. I finally just joyrid the thing into a ditch after the doors and body panels were so badly rusted that paying off the guy to just slap an inspection sticker on it stopped working (and the Cigarette pack trick stopped fooling the cops too :lol: ) .

[JBlack16]

Originally posted by RazorDX
A guy I work with was telling me about those Silverados. They use Chevrolet's cylinder management to cut it down to I think he said 2 cylinders. 4 sounds more practical for something that big and non-aerodynamic, but who knows.

As far as reliability goes, you see a lot of really beat down Chevys running around from the 85-90 model years, and people give Chevy a bad rap for that. Truth be told, however crappy they may look (or in some cases smell), they are still driving around. You honestly don't see too many cars from that "era" from other manufacturers, aside from a few foreign ones.

You are right, i had a 90 toyota camry which was my first car. It was a 5 speed, I am still kicking myself I should have kept that thing, it only i had 140k when i traded her in, my aunt was the original owner of the car. The only reason i traded her in because it was starting to rust unfortunately. That car ran like a champ, The only thing I had to do was replace tires, flush the engine coolant, oil changes, and replace a wheel that messed up because i hit a friggen pothole because it was still winter time. I traded her in for $1,500, (and no this was no push pull or drag sale either) and then a few weeks later I pulled a carfax and it was sold. I wander how much they sold her for. My dad is a GM man and I tell him one day he will make the change over from GM to Toyota, Nissan, or Honda.

[VanishingImage]

I'll admit Im not brand loyal but I do love GM,atleast their older classics. Now a days they seem to just re-badge vehicles from other countries. They do design some stuff but for the most part its all re-badging.

But like I said in my earlier post,I think this is a good thing,definately a reality check for GM. They need to re-think how they design there parts to last a little longer. They have been introducing longer warranties,for instance,their 100,000 mile drivetrain warranty.

[cweaver06]

Originally posted by JBlack16
You are right, i had a 90 toyota camry which was my first car. It was a 5 speed, I am still kicking myself I should have kept that thing, it only i had 140k when i traded her in, my aunt was the original owner of the car. The only reason i traded her in because it was starting to rust unfortunately. That car ran like a champ, The only thing I had to do was replace tires, flush the engine coolant, oil changes, and replace a wheel that messed up because i hit a friggen pothole because it was still winter time. I traded her in for $1,500, (and no this was no push pull or drag sale either) and then a few weeks later I pulled a carfax and it was sold. I wander how much they sold her for. My dad is a GM man and I tell him one day he will make the change over from GM to Toyota, Nissan, or Honda.

A woman I work with has a 1990 camry. It has over 310,xxx miles and still goin' strong. She said all she's ever done was routine maintenance. Oil, brakes, tires, that sort of thing. She loves it and the 34 MPG (she says.) I'm still a huge GM fan, but I've got to give it to 'em...they build some damn good cars...Even if I do think they're almost all ugly:lol:

[infernus]

GM has this problem of not letting go of the V8's in their trucks and switching to turbo 6's. Even V6's in cars that are just wasteful. Good example: the Solstice GXP motor. More HP & torque than the 3.9 V6 in the G6 GTP. It doesn't make any sense. And don't get me started on how a majority of GM's lineup only comes with an automatic transmission...

[Nighthawk243]

Originally posted by infernus
GM has this problem of not letting go of the V8's in their trucks and switching to turbo 6's. Even V6's in cars that are just wasteful. Good example: the Solstice GXP motor. More HP & torque than the 3.9 V6 in the G6 GTP. It doesn't make any sense. And don't get me started on how a majority of GM's lineup only comes with an automatic transmission...

Well... GM still uses V6's since alot of average joe blows associate more cylinders = better. The Solstice GXP hasn't been a great seller because when your average joe blow hears "4 cyl" they think that it lacks any balls, despite the light weight (Meaning a high Power to weight ratio) and turbocharged engine that gets 260 on both torque and horsepower. Its an engine that would easily smoke a myriad of V6's and even a number of V8 engines. A Z28 or Trans Am WS6 would have problems if it didn't have the higher output LS1 engine. Imports would just die, and the mustang would also have large issues unless it was a Shelby GT500. (The V6 mustang would just die...)

As far as the lack of MT's in GM's lineup... again, its due to the fact that your average joe blow anymore cannot drive anything other than slushboxes. Nearly all of the cars used in driving tests/Drivers ed classes are equipped with slushboxes. I almost had to order my G5, but I lucked out and found the only one on the lot equipped with the getrag. GM, IMO, is trying to rid the Manual out of its lineup as much as possible due to a decreasing number of new drivers who can drive a manual. GM and other automakers seem to be going more toward Semi-Automatic/Semi-manual transmissions that either can be a full automatic, or have a manual shift mode. Some are manuals, but they're clutchless, instead opting for an automatic clutch and a sequential paddle shifter... but its just not the same.