Tempermental Starting!

[DKOnLine]

Ok my 97 Ga with the 3100 is giving me problems once again! But this time its a starting issue. It will start like maybe ten times and then the 11th time my car won't start. It won't even turn over. There is just lights. But if I keep turning the key on and off over and over again it will start sometimes after a few tries and other times after maybe 20 to 30 trys. I replaced the solenoid on the starter and had the starter tested and its fine. I have also replaced the ignition cylinder. I can hear the fuel pump kick in and I don't have any lack of fuel delivery. Could it be the ignition switch itself? Im getting really frustrated with this car. Any help would be appreciated!

[DKOnLine]

..

[Mirage]

does the security light come on at all?

[MantaGreen97]

When you say it won't turn over you mean it won't crank right? That has to be related to the ignition switch and related wiring, or the starter motor/solenoid and it's wiring. Or you could have a bad battery, but it doesn't sound like it.

Also you might want to check into the connections on the recall relay (if you've had the recall done on your car there will be a relay up top above the radiator, near the cooling fan bracket and the A/C lines). That relay is also involved in the crank/key "START" position in powering the starter motor. There's a ground on that relay IIRC--be sure the ground point is clean and secure.

[Nighthawk243]

I echo Mirages. If the "SECURITY" light is on, then its Passlock giving you the problems.

[MantaGreen97]

Originally posted by Nighthawk243
I echo Mirages. If the "SECURITY" light is on, then its Passlock giving you the problems.
Perhaps but PassLock will not stop the car from cranking, it only disables the injectors--that's why I asked him if what he meant by "won't turn over" was that it wouldn't crank at all. (Some people seem to have different meanings of "turn over".)

As a side note, for the OP, the light on your car will not say "SECURITY" but rather it will say "THEFT SYS".

[DKOnLine]

When I say it won't turn over Im saying Im getting nothing from the engine. Not a noise. But if I keep turning the key on and off it will eventually start. Yes the theft sys light does come on but if it was passlock wouldnt I have to keep the key in the ignition and in the on position for 10-15 minutes to get it to reset? I can get it to start in 1 to 5 minutes. Im really leaning towards the ignition switch being the problem. And if it is, how hard/easy is it to replace it?

[DKOnLine]

All the connections to the solenoid and starter are clean and tight.

[DKOnLine]

Any other suggestions?

[DKOnLine]

Starter Relay near the radiator was the problem.

[rixGAphx]

Starter Relay near the radiator was the problem.Ah, the relay installed by a GM dealer as the official recall repair for the 'Ignition Switch Overheat' problem on '96-'98 GA's.

Glad you got it fixed, sorry we were of no help.

Thanks for reporting back, this may indeed help others.

[DKOnLine]

Yeah and I had that recall done when it came out.

[DKOnLine]

Im back again with the same issue and this time its not the relay. I have noticed that my car will do the same symptoms if Im parked downhill, or parked on any type of incline. Is this caused by the neutral safety switch?

[rixGAphx]

Is this caused by the neutral safety switch?The NSS is called the 'Transaxle Range Sensor' by GM for this car, since it reports-back to the PCM more than merely whether the tranny is in 'N' (or 'P').

The 'NSS' purpose is to prevent throwing the starter nose gear into a ring-gear (autotranny) or flywheel (manual) that's already spinning cuz the engine is running and/or the car is coasting in gear.
It allows the tranny to be started while coasting if you shift into 'N' (auto) or push the clutch in (manual).

If it's faulty, then it will prevent the solenoid from activating the starter.
But it's a pretty robust little switch, and I can't imagine it being affected by the gravity change of a few degrees of slope either way, not even on the steepest possible private driveway.

HOWEVER, think about how you're using the car and how the NSS works:
On a 'down slope', the tranny is in 'P' and the tranny output shaft is pushing forward (rotationally).
On an 'upslope' the force on the shaft is opposite.
The minor rotation of the shaft itself (between the 'cogs' that grab the parking pawl) *might* be enough to affect what the TRS thinks the 'range' is.

Other possiblities (if the problem is indeed 'gravitational') would be:
* The solenoid (the current-carrying part of it is a metal disk, that's kinda sloppy in its mounting); or,
* The battery and its cables (being tugged somewhat off-plumb).
* Every older GA's ignition switch and cylinder seems to be living on borrowed time, so it's a possiblity.
* Most probable would be something related to a liquid, which is most-easily affect by gravity. but I can't think of a GA liquid that would affect the starter:
* * Gasoline: No effect on the GA's starter.
* * Coolant: ditto.
* * Washer fluid: ditto.
* * Tranny fluid: ditto.
* * Brake fluid: ditto.
* * PS fluid. ditto.
* * Oil level: ditto (though it might affect fuel flow, via the oil-PRESSURE sensor).
* * Battery acid: A few degrees tilt, of a near-dry lead-acid battery, *might* reduce the current production a tad, but not so much as to have an effect on a starter/solenoid IMO.

I would go back to your original thesis:
Worn-out ignition switch.

Good luck,
-Rick

[DKOnLine]

See I thought it was the ignition switch too but I already replaced it. I've replaced everything ignition wise except the wiring.


Replaced so far:
Ignition Switch
Key and Tumbler
Starter Solenoid
Starter
Battery Connections
Starter Relay



Still same result. Im stumped and since it doesn't do it constantly shops aren't able to find anything wrong because it works fine when they have it.

[rixGAphx]

Then ship it to Iraq.



The best way to protect amercian soldiers from car bombs,
is to equip suicide bombers with Grand Ams.

[DKOnLine]

Now I just replaced the Neutral Safety Switch and its still doing it. What else could it be? Im stumped.

[rixGAphx]

When it misbehaves, is it:
* Clicking (the disc inside the starter solenoid) but not turning-over?
or
* Not even clicking?

[DKOnLine]

No clicking at all. And its when its hot too. On a cool day it really doesnt do it. I rocked the car pretty hard today and got it to start after driving it around for about 30 minutes.

[rixGAphx]

No clicking; therefore, the disk in the solenoid isn't being moved (or not being moved far enough) to make contact.

Well, it seems like the command to 'start' isn't getting from the key to the solenoid disk.
You've replaced all devices involved. I'd say they are 99% reliable.
I guess it's time to dive into the wiring itself.

I look for 4 major trouble spots:
* Ground connections: Power is trying to get from the battery to the solenoid ground (engine block) and to the relay ground (radiator core suport sheet metal, via the body ground on the driver inner front fender).
Connections must be clean and tight.
Additionally, examine the mounting of the relay and the solenoid, since it is that metal-to-metal contact which is their 'ground.'
* Damaged wire: Possibly where somebody was working, or near a hot exhaust manifold.
* Where wires penetrate sheet metal (the firewall) and could have been chafed raw.
* The power-supply wires that attach to each device might be loose inside of their connectors.

Still no joy?
Go back to the three devices (ignition switch, relay, and starter solenoid) and test/replace them, looking for the elusive-but-possible 1% defective-out-of-the-box part.

Good luck,
-Rick

[DKOnLine]

PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The good ole GM Dealership that handled the recall on this thing didn't properly install the starter relay. They use butt end connector to wire it in to the system. So over the course of the couple years its been slowly erroding away and one side of it the wires weren't even crimped down well. The shop found it today after we got it to act up. (It was a very warm day today and thats when it really acted up) They quickly started testing anything electrical and they found no power was going to the starter. So they worked their way back and found power at and from the Neutral Safety Switch but none at the starter. So they then follwed the wires back from the relay and found the butt end connector. They started messing with it and the car started! The cut it out and we found the problem in the connector like I stated above. Not crimped well and erroding. My car now starts each and everytime!!!!!

Thanks for all the help and suggestions!

[rixGAphx]

PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The good ole GM Dealership that handled the recall on this thing didn't properly install the starter relay. They use butt end connector to wire it in to the system. So over the course of the couple years its been slowly erroding away and one side of it the wires weren't even crimped down well. The shop found it today after we got it to act up. (It was a very warm day today and thats when it really acted up) They quickly started testing anything electrical and they found no power was going to the starter. So they worked their way back and found power at and from the Neutral Safety Switch but none at the starter. So they then follwed the wires back from the relay and found the butt end connector. They started messing with it and the car started! The cut it out and we found the problem in the connector like I stated above. Not crimped well and erroding. My car now starts each and everytime!!!!!

Thanks for all the help and suggestions!I would be so :AAARRRRGGGGHHH:

Glad you're on the road again, thanks for reporting back!

[DKOnLine]

Trust me I am!!!!! Never going back to that dealership for anything!