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View Full Version : Mainly overheating problem.


saltystix
08-11-2007, 11:18 AM
Ok... so heres the story, without the history it may not help as much.

I have 1996 Grand Am V6 3100, SE

My car ran fine, just a little above half on the temp guage. No "problems" that I could see. My friend comes and looks at my car (thats just the things he does) and he's like your lower intake gasket is leaking, as we could see a little liquid down there.

Well of course being a college student, im broke, so i save up pretty much all summer, after 2 insurance payments, cell phone, birthdays... anyhow, I get the money to get a "tune-up"

So we take it to his work, because he is allowed to use the garage on Saturdays. So Saturday rolls on and we start the project.

Things I noticed as we were working on it. The "rockers" as I will call them, on 2 of them he "drilled em home" because they were becoming cross threaded. We put all the stuff in and everything looked normal. Started up the car and it worked. It was running around its normal temp from before but just a TAD higher. (Garage called me to see if he changed the temp guage or something, NO he did not change it).

We go on a little test drive and the car starts to heat up. So we pull over and the coolent is gushing out of the over flow onto the street. We eventually take the car to his house and bled the lines for about 40 minutes... but it was no match, air kept getting in somewhere. We would put water/coolent in and couple minutes later it was boiling over out of the reseviour tank.

So I go on my way to drive home, about 20 minutes down the road I stop to get gas and I hear pumping noises, which sound like they are coming from one of the radiator hoses by the battery side. So I start out of the gas station up a big hill (talking about 2 miles long). From what people have told me before, turn on your heat so it takes some away from the engine, I did this (which was the first time doing so since the lower intake fix. About 1/4 up I see that the temp is going up fast, it was at the 2 lines below the red section, so it was still in its "normal" range but higher. So I start to pull over and the car shuts down and won't start for like 30 minutes. My guess is the car shuts off when it gets hot and won't let u start it until it cools down.

We take it back down the hill after it starts up (first try after 30 mins) down to the local walmart. We bought some water for the road since it was probably low from boiling over. So my buddy pours water in the resevour tank and I hear water pouring in the parking lot. At first I think he is missing the tank, but its coming from another area of the car. So we look and its coming from the water pump.

So I get it towed to my house and then to the garage instead of driving it any further. I get a call today, they water pump was definelty gone but it is still doing the same boiling over stuff. He told me he'd take a look at everything and call me back later. Since its a half day for them (Mr. Muffler) I doubt he found anything. He said there could be a blockage somewhere, temp guage, worst case head gasket. He did change the cap on the tank for the coolent.

Any ideas, suggestions... anything is greatly appreciated. Sorry its so long, but he pretty much asked me about my whole car history so I was guessing it is something they take into consideration. Through my story, there check engine light did not come on, or any other indicator.

whitegrandamse
08-11-2007, 09:45 PM
my 95 had overheating problems and it was the head gasket. It was pretty obvious because the anti-freeze was so dirty from combustion getting into it. ALso, you will get alot of air in the cooling system if compression is getting into it.

rixGAphx
08-12-2007, 08:02 PM
Let me get this straight.

Your buddy said you had a leaking LIM gasket.
You saved your money, then took the garage to the shop where he works, and you did a 'tune-up'.
But as part of this 'tune-up', two rocker studs were becoming 'cross-threaded'.
And yer buddy 'drilled em home' as a part of the repair.
Questions so far:
* Rather than a 'tune-up' (which for your engine consist only of replacing the spark plugs, plug sires, PCV valve, air filter, and fuel filter), did you guys actually do a LIM gasket replacement?
* I *assume* we're talking about the nuts and screw studs that hold the rocker arms to the cylinder heads; these are 'rocker studs'. Rather than 'cross-threaded', these were probably 'stripping'. Is this possibly what he was talking about?
* He prolly removed the studs, and drilled-out each hole to receive a 'heli-coil insert' (the standard repair for munged-up threads, whether cross-threaded or stripped). Is this possibly what he was talking about?

Then you went for the first test drive after the 'tune-up', and the temp gage indicated the temp was a tad high.
Then at several different points, coolant gushed-out of the coolant reservoir overflow hose, and finally out of the waterpump.

Now the car is at the shop.

Question: Other than a little hot, and then boilover, how was the engine running on the test drive:
* Sounded fine, or made unusual noises?
* Felt as strong as ever, or felt low on power?
* Idled and ran smoothly, or stumbled, kicked, revved, or other rough running?
* Any idiot lights 'on'?
* Was the CEL/SES light 'on'?

My *guess*is that your buddy did an improer job of replacing the LIM gasket.
In particular, the pushrods for the exhaust valves are 1/4" longer than the intake push rods.
Putting the short rods in the wrong positions doesn't hurt much (though the engine runs like shit).
But for each short rod in a 'long-position', there's a long rod in a 'short-position'.
This strips-out the rocker stud as you're screwing the thing back together; thus your repair.
But if a long rod still remained in a short position, you *might* assemble the engine 'OK', but you would bend the long rod(s).

And, depending on how precise he was with the 'drilling-out' operation, he *might* have drilled thru the soft aluminum and tapped into the water jacket of the head (if that's what's beneath the rocke hole, I dunno).

Finally, we'll just have to accept the present shop's diagnosis of a faulty waterpump and reservoir pressure cap.
Personally, I think your pressure cap was damaged by you guys at the end of the LIM gasket procedure:
* Only tighten the cap as much as an average woman can easily do one-handed. Any tighter and you will damage/distor the delicate rubber sealing ring, and it won't hold pressure.
* If you guys fully-tightened the cap, then the system would have spewed-out coolant even if the gage didn't indicate above-average temperature.
It's very rare for a GA V6 waterpump to fail in this manner. Unless it just plain CRACKS from somebody overtightening something.

Oncemost of the coolant leaves the engine, the gage no longer indicates 'overheating'. Its sensor just doesn't conduct heat from air very well.
Meantime, all the iron and aluminum of the block, pistons, and heads is getting REALLY hot, above 350*F!!!
The gasoline in the combustion chambers starts to pre-detonate (diesel/knock), and the pistons start to swell in the cylinder bores; this swelling makes them'stick' so much that eventually the engine stops.
Once the engne cools and the pistons shrink, then you can crank and start the engine again.
But almost always, once you've had a complete loss of coolant (for whatever reason), then one or both cylinder heads will 'warp', and the headgasket will 'blow'.

I know this isn't good news, sorry.

Good luck,
-Rick

saltystix
08-12-2007, 11:55 PM
Before I towed the car, the power of the engine remained the same as it did before we did anything.

As "tune up" i meant we were just fixing a "problem". It was a future problem, but something at the present was to help it.

He was telling me about the rods and to make sure they were in the right place. If I remember, the long ones go to the exhaust and the short ones to where the plugs are. The "rocker" as I believe it was (what holds the rods in) is what he drilled in.

At first he wouldn't go in much, the threads were messed up. So he got one of those re-threading bits and put it in there and it still wouldn't go in... So he slammed it down in there to where it was before. He only did this on two or three of them.

I have yellow circles around what I am talking about. This is my actually engine while we were doing the gaskets.

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/1853/rockerthingsvs7.jpg

There were no lights on. The idle was around 600ish where it normally idled for me. The engine sounded like it did before.

I drove the car 20 minutes on the high way before it turned off. It was on its persuit up the hill and right before it turned off, it was like I was giving it some gas, but it wasn't going as hard as it was before. After we took it down the hill it felt like the engine normally did.

The garage that i towed my car too told me there was no doubt the water pump was bad and that the cap didn't have a seal or something on it. Which is very believable to me, because, I saw the water running out of the water pump everytime I filled it and the cap was old and I probably very well over tightened throughout the years.

I am supposed to get a call tomorrow morning if they find anything out.

Thanks a bunch guys.

rixGAphx
08-13-2007, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by saltystix
As "tune up" i meant we were just fixing a "problem". It was a future problem, but something at the present was to help it.OK, I'm with you now.

Just for future reference, a 'Tune-Up' in automotive parlance refers to the specific procedure and parts I referred to.
And most places will charge extra for the PCV valve, air filter, and fuel filter. I have yellow circles around what I am talking about. This is my actual engine while we were doing the gaskets. OK.

What you have circled are the rocker arms.
The purpose of the pushrods is to push the rocker arms, thereby 'rocking' them and pushing the valves open.
The pushrods are indeed held in place by the rocker arms, though that's not their purpose.
I drove the car 20 minutes on the highway before it turned off.
It was on its persuit up the hill and right before it turned off, it was like I was giving it some gas, but it wasn't going as hard as it was before. After we took it down the hill it felt like the engine normally did.Well, no noise or other unusual signs is good news.

Good luck,
-Rick

DomestikDemon
08-15-2007, 09:29 PM
Sounds to me like the gasket is damaged or improperly installed....Ive dealt with this more motor and its quirks before....It definitely sounds like your friend messed something up.

DomestikDemon
08-15-2007, 09:29 PM
BTW....anything coming out the tailpipe? smoke/steam reeking of antifreeze?

saltystix
08-16-2007, 01:07 AM
I think there was some very faint white smoke coming out and a little bit of moisture...

sure isn't looking bad.

its at the mechanic and he is going to take a look at it and then go from there, perhaps change a gasket or head or whatever.

by the way, i've learned my lesson of never letting friends work on your car, don't save your money cuz your going to spend it anyway and never buy another grand am.

GMFWDFAN
08-16-2007, 08:41 AM
Grand Ams are good cars in general, at least mine is. I was nervous buying it because of the bad rep a lot of people gave them around me, but mine's been awesome.

It's just that with more age and more miles, any car (except maybe a Honda :P) is succeptable (sp?) to problems.

My car had a coolant overflow issue right after we did a coolant flush on it, and I replaced the pressure cap and bled the air out and that solved it. I also probably had a bit too much coolant in there to begin with, so the car was just fortunately doing what it was supposed to do - at least in my case.

rixGAphx
08-16-2007, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by saltystix
i've learned my lessons:
* of never letting friends work on your car,
* never buy another grand am. You are wise, young Kyle.

And never live downstream of an earthen dam..... :eek:

I've visited your town.
cool view of the valley from the funicular railway.