Intake Manifold Gaskets and Reimbursement from GM

[mtnagel]

I just had my intake maifold gaskets and water pump replaced on my car. I'm trying to see if I can get some money back from GM/Pontiac because of all the other people that have had this problem. I already have called the customer care number and the women I spoke with said that she would call me back next week. I think I made a pretty good case and she seemed like I could get something back except that I went to an independent mechanic instead of the dealer so I'm not sure what she will come back with.

Anyway, I've had someone e-mail me and tell me that he got GM to pay for his whole repair except for a $100 "deductible" even though his was out of the warranty period and he had no extended warranty on his either. I still have a few "tricks" up my sleeve if she comes back and says they can't do anything (like talking to someone higher up the chain of command and telling them that I won't ever buy another GM car because of all the problems I've had).

Anyway, I would like to know if anyone else out there has gotten any money back from GM/Pontiac because of this repair despite being out of the warranty period and not having an extended warranty? I think it would help further my case.

Also, if someone could tell me in layman's term exactly what causes this failure. I'm assuming that it's because they use crappy seals, but I don't know much about cars or the problem. I would like to have any and all data/information when she calls back.

Thanks
Matthew

[Gimli]

The seals aren't really the problem, it's the design of the engine itself that's at fault.

Basically there isn't enough bolts to hold the manifolds and it puts extra strain on the gaskets, which end up failing.

[MJE95GAGT]

:agree:
However, theres a thread over on GAGT that Monello started (maybe he can chime in) in which there is a class action suit starting against GM that states the Dex-cool was the fault of these gaskets breaking down. Theres a # you can call in that thread too. I called about a month ago and left a message.......never called back :rolleyes: It might not go thru but its something to look into :)
BTW that thread is in the warranty, TSB, recall section I believe

[mtnagel]

Originally posted by Gimli
The seals aren't really the problem, it's the design of the engine itself that's at fault.

Basically there isn't enough bolts to hold the manifolds and it puts extra strain on the gaskets, which end up failing.
So, does that mean that even though I've had it fixed, that it will happen again? It's not a matter of if, but when?

[MJE95GAGT]

yes, people even have used Felpro gaskets and they have leaked..... GM now uses a new "improved" gasket....... but it just delays it more

[Gimli]

Originally posted by MJE95GAGT
yes, people even have used Felpro gaskets and they have leaked..... GM now uses a new "improved" gasket....... but it just delays it more

Well, the new gaskets have only been out for a couple of months so I don't see how you can make that kind of comment with any substance to it.

If the gasket was replaced with the same thing: it'll probably leak again. If it's the new design gasket: it might hold on for longer, might even last for as long as the car rides.

BTW it's not as common a problem as most people seem to think. Not everyone with one of these engine gets a leaking intake. It just looks that way because most posts on boards are about problems, not cars that are running fine. Same with a dealer mechanic. The only cars he ever sees are the defective ones...

[rj53081]

i replaced mine and its going on 4 mounths now and still no leaks but lets wait and see

[LordNor]

Would this leak cause coolant loss. I had to relpalce about once a month. I had some wet areas around my water pump so I replaced it now it's just slower.

[Gimli]

You would lose coolant and it would probably end up in your oil.

Check for any whitish creamy residue in your oil, that'd be coolant.

[rj53081]

when mine started to leak it leaked below the throttle body.

[zeddsdead]

i too have had the problem....and had to get a new water pump also.

[illsmokeyou]

Originally posted by mtnagel
I just had my intake maifold gaskets and water pump replaced on my car. I'm trying to see if I can get some money back from GM/Pontiac because of all the other people that have had this problem. I already have called the customer care number and the women I spoke with said that she would call me back next week. I think I made a pretty good case and she seemed like I could get something back except that I went to an independent mechanic instead of the dealer so I'm not sure what she will come back with.

Anyway, I've had someone e-mail me and tell me that he got GM to pay for his whole repair except for a $100 "deductible" even though his was out of the warranty period and he had no extended warranty on his either. I still have a few "tricks" up my sleeve if she comes back and says they can't do anything (like talking to someone higher up the chain of command and telling them that I won't ever buy another GM car because of all the problems I've had).

Anyway, I would like to know if anyone else out there has gotten any money back from GM/Pontiac because of this repair despite being out of the warranty period and not having an extended warranty? I think it would help further my case.

Also, if someone could tell me in layman's term exactly what causes this failure. I'm assuming that it's because they use crappy seals, but I don't know much about cars or the problem. I would like to have any and all data/information when she calls back.

Thanks
Matthew


yeah, we can get into details if you need the help. My mom has a 2000V6 se also, and this was her exact problem at 45,000 miles. lower and upper, as well as water pump, battery, and some other bogus things that shouldnt be happening to a 3 year old car. With the regular matinence included, her total bill topped 2K

I laughed in horror at her service tech and suggested she get a toyota. I dunno what kind of strings that he pulled, but he notified me that the bill was decreased to some $900... aceptable for the water pump, and other things.... and by the way thi sdealer is on the pricey side when it comes to non-warranty work, due to their second place standing in the entire western region.... Simpson pontiac in Buena Park, CA.

I explained to the service manager that he knew as well as I did that this was a very commom problem with these engines, and asked why pontiac hasnt recalled them. His honest reply "because its cheaper for them not to", made me wonder a bit, nevertheless pontiac still picked up the tab on a non warranty car, which means that at least they "acknowledge fault" in some way.

this was mid april, and so far no leaks. The car recieved the updated version of the gasket BTW

[mtnagel]

Originally posted by illsmokeyou
yeah, we can get into details if you need the help. My mom has a 2000V6 se also, and this was her exact problem at 45,000 miles. lower and upper, as well as water pump, battery, and some other bogus things that shouldnt be happening to a 3 year old car. With the regular matinence included, her total bill topped 2K

I laughed in horror at her service tech and suggested she get a toyota. I dunno what kind of strings that he pulled, but he notified me that the bill was decreased to some $900... aceptable for the water pump, and other things.... and by the way thi sdealer is on the pricey side when it comes to non-warranty work, due to their second place standing in the entire western region.... Simpson pontiac in Buena Park, CA.

I explained to the service manager that he knew as well as I did that this was a very commom problem with these engines, and asked why pontiac hasnt recalled them. His honest reply "because its cheaper for them not to", made me wonder a bit, nevertheless pontiac still picked up the tab on a non warranty car, which means that at least they "acknowledge fault" in some way.

this was mid april, and so far no leaks. The car recieved the updated version of the gasket BTW
Thanks for the info. I may end up getting screwed because I didn't ever take it to the dealer. But, when your car is spewing coolant all over the driveway and I had the choice of my local mechanic, who has been pretty good to me and always gives me a loaner car, and is no more than a half a mile away, or a dealer who is 10 -15 miles away and I would have had to have it towed there and find some other car for 4 days - not a tough choice. Oh well, I'll complain loudly to who ever will listen to me at GM/Pontiac. I'm wondering if the "I'll never buy another GM car" speech will get their attention or if they could car less about that. Too bad that the only car I have my eyes on is the new 2004 Grand Prix. I may have to go foriegn or even worse, I get a big discount (close to the employee price) on Fords (I know, I'd have to be desperate :))

Oh, and mine weren't replaced with GM parts, at least that's what the mechanic said, but I don't know who makes them because it's not listed on the invoice.

[illsmokeyou]

yeah.. sorry I didnt read the post ENTIRELY, but you didnt use the dealership, which you MUST do under the factory warranty, or what you are trying to use in this case. The only time a CERTIFIED independant is allowed to make a repair is under an extended warranty, so Im sorry to say that your out of luck. I dont know how competent the dealer around your area is, but my mom took hers in at around 3ish, and it was still there when we left at 4pm. they called her the next morning around noonish, and was ready to pick her up.... talk about speedy

[mtnagel]

Originally posted by illsmokeyou
yeah.. sorry I didnt read the post ENTIRELY, but you didnt use the dealership, which you MUST do under the factory warranty, or what you are trying to use in this case. The only time a CERTIFIED independant is allowed to make a repair is under an extended warranty, so Im sorry to say that your out of luck. I dont know how competent the dealer around your area is, but my mom took hers in at around 3ish, and it was still there when we left at 4pm. they called her the next morning around noonish, and was ready to pick her up.... talk about speedy
I'm not giving up, I will still see what I can get. They took Thurs to Sat. morning, but they had to order all the parts and it does require taking apart most of the engine.

Originally posted by MJE95GAGT
However, theres a thread over on GAGT that Monello started (maybe he can chime in) in which there is a class action suit starting against GM that states the Dex-cool was the fault of these gaskets breaking down. Theres a # you can call in that thread too. I called about a month ago and left a message.......never called back It might not go thru but its something to look into
I finally checked this out and this is what I found (I posted this also on the thread about "Death Cool" in the Problems and Solutions section:
Here's the petition http://www.petitiononline.com/GMcnsmrs/petition.html. I was 3161! On the girls main page (http://www.msnusers.com/GMConsumers), she said that on May 25, she was sending GM a printed copy (over 300 pages of just signatures).

And here's a law firm (http://www.stklaw.com/) that has a class action lawsuit for vehicles with Dex-Cool.

[Gimli]

Originally posted by mtnagel
Too bad that the only car I have my eyes on is the new 2004 Grand Prix. I may have to go foriegn or even worse, I get a big discount (close to the employee price) on Fords (I know, I'd have to be desperate :))

I've actually been looking at the Mercury Marauder (someone I work with bought one) and even though it's a Ford it looks damn good. And it's got power too :???:

If I had to change cars right now and considering that the GTO won't make it to Canada, I might just go with a Marauder, but with a 5 year/140k km extended warranty :D

[mtnagel]

Originally posted by Gimli
I've actually been looking at the Mercury Marauder (someone I work with bought one) and even though it's a Ford it looks damn good. And it's got power too :???:

If I had to change cars right now and considering that the GTO won't make it to Canada, I might just go with a Marauder, but with a 5 year/140k km extended warranty :D
Dude, no offense, but that's an old persons car:D. RWD and V8, that things a beast (and a boat). And starting at only $35000 is what the Mercury website says. What a deal?! Can't afford that, I just bought a new house.

[Gimli]

Originally posted by mtnagel
Dude, no offense, but that's an old persons car:D. RWD and V8, that things a beast (and a boat). And starting at only $35000 is what the Mercury website says. What a deal?! Can't afford that, I just bought a new house.

Yeah, a boat, just like the GTO and Camaro (RWD and V8). It's got the perfect sleeper rice-killer looks. 302 hp and 318 torque, 245/55WR18 tires, Limited slip differential, 3.55:1 trans ratio.

That's the kind of old person's car that I want :D

I guess you'd qualify the old Grand National GNX as an old person's car too ;)

Besides, if you have the Ford employee price it won't be as expansive...

[mtnagel]

Originally posted by Gimli
Yeah, a boat, just like the GTO and Camaro (RWD and V8). It's got the perfect sleeper rice-killer looks. 302 hp and 318 torque, 245/55WR18 tires, Limited slip differential, 3.55:1 trans ratio.

That's the kind of old person's car that I want :D

I guess you'd qualify the old Grand National GNX as an old person's car too ;)

Besides, if you have the Ford employee price it won't be as expansive...
302 HP!! Maybe I will reconsider.:D

I would get a Mustang before that though. I don't get the employee discount (A-plan), but X-plan.

[fOx]

I and three others that I know of, two with 99's, have had this problem. Mine happened under warranty and they fixed it with no questions asked. They told me that the coolant wasn't mixing with the oil tho. They said it was just pooling on top of the intake and evaporating or falling on the ground... has anyone else heard this explaination? And the work they did is warrantied for a year, should I bring it back in a few months and have them go over it to make sure?

It's been okay for about 8 months now, no difference in the level of coolant.

fOx

[rollbonez]

Originally posted by fOx
I and three others that I know of, two with 99's, have had this problem. Mine happened under warranty and they fixed it with no questions asked. They told me that the coolant wasn't mixing with the oil tho. They said it was just pooling on top of the intake and evaporating or falling on the ground... has anyone else heard this explaination? And the work they did is warrantied for a year, should I bring it back in a few months and have them go over it to make sure?

It's been okay for about 8 months now, no difference in the level of coolant.

fOx

Have them pressure test the coolant system. It should find any leaks. Shouldn't run more than $30.

I have been highly proactive about getting to this problem before my warranty ends and I have my car pressure tested every 10k miles to check.

tom

[klc317]

My intake gaskets have been replaced twice under warranty. Once at around 12,000 miles, and again at 19,500 with the "new and improved" gaskets...we'll see what happens now.

[fOx]

I had a pressure test done at Canadian Tire. The guy tried to blow out one of the hoses in my coolant system. They filled up the overflow, adding 1.5 litres more collant than they needed, just to get the pressure up and then cranked away on their handheld device until I pounded on the glass and told them to stop. The guy came out and says, "We have to do some real work here. I'm going to start with a new overflow". I told him to back my car out now, because I was finished with this place. He writes up a prescription saying I need a new overflow bottle and then they can check for leaks (something about a hairline crack in the overflow prohibiting them from checking for a leak) then in the same breath he tells me I have a leak somewhere (even though he couldnt check for one). I took the car to the dealer (where it is still under warranty) and the dealer has to pull 1.5 litres of excess collant out of the system and then runs his own pressure test and finds no leaks. The dealr would have loved to find a leak because his shop could then charge parts and labour to GM to fix it. They printed me out a full report...

I know it has been said before, but don't trust those *******s at Canadian Tire they are a bunch of kids who don't know shit about cars. They can even f*&) up something as simple as a pressure test, I thought that a monkey could handle that. Oh and when I went back to Canadian Tire, the manager said, "I don't give a shit about what the dealer told you. My guys found a leak." Then he went into the back and grabbed the pressure testing device and said "bring your damn car back tomorrow morning and I will show you where the leak is!" As if this fat-grade-school-dropout-******* is ever going to touch my car again. Shit service+ Shit customer relations + great fraudulent techniques = Canadian Tire Auto Service.

Let this serve as another testimonial about not taking your car to Crappy Tire...

fOx

[rollbonez]

This is why I always go to my dealer for routine services. It's like having a family doctor. Because you always visit the same doctor, he knows what problems you've had and how you react to different treatments. Same thing with a mechanic.

I know it might be a little more pricey, but the old saying goes, "You get what you pay for."

Plus, my dealer always gives me breaks on services because I go to him all the time.

[LordNor]

Originally posted by rollbonez
I know it might be a little more pricey, but the old saying goes, "You get what you pay for."

Don't you mean, "You don't get what they make you pay them for? "

:P

[rollbonez]

Originally posted by LordNor
Don't you mean, "You don't get what they make you pay them for? "

:P


:P so true!

[bcampr1]

My 99 with 72k is doing the same thing. Now if GM knows about the problem and is not willing to fix it as a recall, has anyone had any luck on an individual basis? I am taking mine in today for the same thing. I would rather not pay $2k when Pontiac should pay for a known problem.

[mtnagel]

Originally posted by bcampr1
My 99 with 72k is doing the same thing. Now if GM knows about the problem and is not willing to fix it as a recall, has anyone had any luck on an individual basis? I am taking mine in today for the same thing. I would rather not pay $2k when Pontiac should pay for a known problem. Definitely take it to the dealer. That's where I think I'm running into problems. But also, the person I've dealt with at GM customer service has been nice, but it's happened twice now, once with her and another by her supervisor, that they give me 2 consecutive days of 2 hour time frames (as if I have nothing better to do than sit by the phone) and they never call back. What's up with that? Not very good customer service if you ask me. Definitely makes me think I won't buy a GM as my next car.

And I'm very loyal to good customer service. I had a Fossil watch break after like 7 years (never changed the battery or a single scratch either) and they sent me a new $85 for $7.50 for shipping. Because of that, I will probably never buy another watch besides a Fossil. If GM would have handled this differently, I'd probably never buy another car besides a GM, but I'm beginning to think they make junk cars and then don't even stand behind them when they fall apart!

[99SEDude]

What's GM's number to call about this? I'm getting ready to replace the water pump and I'm gonna check for leaks around the intake manifold gasket. If in fact I need to replace the gaskets too then I'm gonna need some money, and what better place to get it from than GM, right?

[GA1999]

Let's also not forget boys, that the intake manifolds are made out of plastic. This is really what is attributed to this problem of leaking intake gaskets on GM V-6's. I dunno what these engineers in Detroit are thinking these days. I'll take the extra 20 lbs for an aluminum intake over $700 for an intake gasket replacement and possible engine damage anyday. Luckily, the 2.4 does not have water cooling jackets anywhere near the intake like the 3.4's do, something I'll never have to worry about.

[Lebult]

Originally posted by illsmokeyou
I explained to the service manager that he knew as well as I did that this was a very commom problem with these engines, and asked why pontiac hasnt recalled them. His honest reply "because its cheaper for them not to"

Hehehe, have you ever seen the movie Fight Club?

"Take the number of vehicles in the field - a - multiply it by the probable rate of failure - b - then multiply the result by the average out of court settlement - c. a x b x c = X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, they dont do one."

Its all about the money these days. Costumer Service is just a False Sense of Security.

[bcampr1]

So, I get a call back today from GM Customer service and they offered to pay 50% of the cost of the repair (50% of $740). So, they admit fault on this one, but I still don't want to accept their not so generous offer. I told them that I filed a complaint with the Illinois Attorney General and I was waiting for their response. Who knows what will happen. F them for trying to pay me off without completely paying me off. They are still on my SH*@ List!:2up:

[mtnagel]

Originally posted by bcampr1
So, I get a call back today from GM Customer service and they offered to pay 50% of the cost of the repair (50% of $740). So, they admit fault on this one, but I still don't want to accept their not so generous offer. I told them that I filed a complaint with the Illinois Attorney General and I was waiting for their response. Who knows what will happen. F them for trying to pay me off without completely paying me off. They are still on my SH*@ List!:2up: Did you take it to the dealer??

GM Customer Service is really pissing me off - 3 times they've said that they would call me back and they haven't!! This has been going on for at least a month if not longer. They just refuse to call back after saying they will. Or once they responded to a message I left at around 8 pm by leaving a message on my voice mail at work (sorry - don't work that late) just saying they would call me back and they haven't.

It's looking less and less likely that I will be getting a GM car next time around either after this crap.

BTW, bcampr1, you can do whatever you want, but I personally would be thrilled with 50%. That would help out a ton. This repair put me pretty close to being in the red.

[99GrandAMSE]

I too would be thrilled with 50%, especially since your car is four years old with 72K miles ... sometimes it is the offer that counts ... I spoke in preliminary terms with my dealer and he said that if my intake went, they would honestly consider paying for it all as according to them (behind the scenes out of public eyes) GM is willing to allow the repair for owners who don't cause them too much grief.

[bcampr1]

and it got me nowhere. They basically told me to shove it. So, I wrote them a nasty letter referencing my service request # (that they should give you when you file a complaint) and a week later they called. When I got my receipt for the repairs, I made a copy and sent everything that I sent to GM to the State's attorney. I have to wait to give them another week to respond. If they can't get me anywhere, I am going to take the 50% and never buy a GM again. It really sucks because I like my car and other GM cars (corvette, Denali, Cadillac CTS, and so on...) but I don't want to have them stick it to me every time something like this comes up. Since GM knows about the problem enough to redesign the gasket then it should have been made public by GM, not by people like us that actually look into the problems. Imagine how many people are out there that just pay the bill and have no idea how common this is? I wish I had $700 to just burn. Maybe then I wouldn't be so pissed.:argue:

[tvdantv]

This explaination (evaporating) makes sense considering what just happened w/ my 02 Montana (3400 w/ 64000 miles). Every time my wife pulled the van into our garage I could smell anti-freeze. I tried to find a leak for 2 weeks w/ no luck. When I took the van into our dealer for a freebie oil change I mentioned the anti-freeze smell. They did a pressure test and found the leak. Twenty six hours later I got the van back w/ new gaskets, new anti-freeze, and fresh oil & filter. All covered under extended warranty. The service manager even gave me back the "free oil change" coupon because replacing the oil was covered under the warranty claim. Now I know what to look (smell) for on my Grand Am.