Why does the 2009 Pontiac Vibe continue to use Toyota engines?

[sunrunner_pei]

Filed under: Plants/Manufacturing (http://www.autoblog.com/category/plants-manufacturing/), Tech (http://www.autoblog.com/category/tech/), Hatchbacks (http://www.autoblog.com/category/hatchbacks/), Pontiac (http://www.autoblog.com/category/pontiac/)
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/11/09-vibe-2.jpg (http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2009-pontiac-vibe-gt/476179/)

Pontiac officially unveiled the 2009 edition of the Vibe hatchback yesterday, and a question has been raised by several commentors (http://www.autoblog.com/2007/11/06/officially-official-2009-pontiac-vibe-revealed/) about the powertrain lineup. As we all know, the Vibe shares a platform with the Toyota Corolla and all of its derivatives. The question of why the Vibe uses the Toyota engines rather than GM's own Ecotec lineup was raised during the press conference. After all the 2.4L EcoTec as used in the Cobalt is rated at 173hp and yields EPA numbers of 22/32 mpg according to the 2008 EPA tests. That's 15 hp more, and it bests the 21/27 mpg of the Toyota 2.4 in the Vibe GT.

According to a Pontiac spokesman, the deal with Toyota allows GM to provide product performance requirements, and do the styling, final calibration and tuning. The base engineering responsibility falls to Toyota, and they select the major component suppliers and subsystems, including engines. So, as long as GM maintains this relationship with Toyota, they will have limited control over whatever vehicles are produced. When you consider GM's recent products, it may be time for the General to create the next generation Vibe from its own Delta platform instead. Dropping the 260 hp turbo DI 2.0 Ecotec from the HHR SS (and Cobalt SS, and Solstice GXP, and Sky Red Line) into the AWD Vibe might make a pretty sweet alternative to the new Caliber SRT-4 from Dodge.

[Source: General Motors]

Gallery: 2009 Pontiac Vibe GT (http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2009-pontiac-vibe-gt/)
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/11/2009pontiacvive_lg017_thumbnail.jpg (http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2009-pontiac-vibe-gt/476250/)http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/11/2009pontiacvive_lg024_thumbnail.jpg (http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2009-pontiac-vibe-gt/476249/)http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/11/2009_vibe_reveal_21_thumbnail.jpg (http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2009-pontiac-vibe-gt/476164/)http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/11/2009_vibe_reveal_22_thumbnail.jpg (http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2009-pontiac-vibe-gt/476170/)http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/11/2009_vibe_reveal_29_thumbnail.jpg (http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2009-pontiac-vibe-gt/476175/)

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[b2089]

This one makes me think. Maybe GM's Vibe deal isn't so sweet if they have to buy the motors from Toyota. Shared platforms is one thing but when a car has a different makes powerplant it IS that make. Toyota Vibe, what about it is Pontiac?

[imstock]

I used to have a Matrix, and I have to say it's a badass engine. Same as the Celica GTS... very perky motor.

[TA^Guy]

This one makes me think. Maybe GM's Vibe deal isn't so sweet if they have to buy the motors from Toyota. Shared platforms is one thing but when a car has a different makes powerplant it IS that make. Toyota Vibe, what about it is Pontiac?
Well Toyota used to sell the Cavalier badged as a Toyota Cavalier in Japan.
It's just a trade off. Toyota and GM have been washing each others backs for decades, nothing new.

[GarciaNY]

if you think about it....its actually a smart thing to do...because toyota....is pretty much on top as is.....so for GM to be "in bed" with them is a smart thing because its still ensuring that GM doesnt....go down the shitter

[sunrunner_pei]

This one makes me think. Maybe GM's Vibe deal isn't so sweet if they have to buy the motors from Toyota. Shared platforms is one thing but when a car has a different makes powerplant it IS that make. Toyota Vibe, what about it is Pontiac?

They don't 'buy' the engines from Toyota, the entire car is manufactured by Toyota in the Nummi plant in California alongside it's other platform mate, the Corolla. All GM has a say in is the styling of the car, they don't really 'buy' parts then build it themselves. It's the same arrangement as the current Vibe/Matrix.

[goredsox]

I would take the smoothness of a camry motor over the thrashiness of a cobalt motor anyday, and it would still get better mpgs even with the ratings... Nuff said.

[Dargasonus]

..

[goredsox]

.. :wtf::???:

[goredsox]

i mean come on, pick up any consumer reports and they always say the same thing, "while the 2.2 or 2.4 may be spirited, they lack the mpg's and refined-ness of the toyota counterparts"

[Silverstone-Z]

I used to have a Matrix, and I have to say it's a badass engine. Same as the Celica GTS... very perky motor.

Too bad the auto 2zz is slower than the 1zz... :(

(Auto GTS engine is slower than auto GT engine) (GTS=180hp, GT=140hp)


And I've come to realize that Toyota's MPG ratings are sometimes not the best they can get. Toyotas have been known to get well over the rated MPG.

[Trudgn]

This one makes me think. Maybe GM's Vibe deal isn't so sweet if they have to buy the motors from Toyota. Shared platforms is one thing but when a car has a different makes powerplant it IS that make. Toyota Vibe, what about it is Pontiac?
Ever heard of the Toyota Voltz? They sell the Vibe under the Toyota name in Japan. There's so much cross-company dealing in this thing it's really hard to follow. The way I see it, Toyota got 2/3 Cars, the Matrix/Voltz, and GM only got the Vibe.

[goredsox]

Too bad the auto 2zz is slower than the 1zz... :(

(Auto GTS engine is slower than auto GT engine) (GTS=180hp, GT=140hp)


And I've come to realize that Toyota's MPG ratings are sometimes not the best they can get. Toyotas have been known to get well over the rated MPG.

:agree: even with the pre 08 rating i was getting the rating, 07 MPG for the rolla=32/41 with a stick 08 rating=27/35, i get 33 city, highway isnt much better though, when i drove to CA, on the highway going 75 with the cruise i managed 37, on they way home from San diego i got only 35...

the same goes for my moms 07 CR-V she gets about 24 in town and 30 on the highway... 07 ratings 23/30, 08=20/27...

2z's came with auto's, i didnt know.... Most likely because the GT tranny are meant for the GT's, so when they stick an automatic GT tranny in a GTS the gearing is no where near the powerband of the VVTL-i motor.. I think also the torque rating are about the same for both motors...

[Matt95GT]

While I see why they are keeping the Toyota powertrains, I'm also in agreement that the 2.4L Ecotec would have been perfect for the Vibe.

Hmmm, these wheels remind me very much of my Spec V wheels...
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/11/2009_vibe_reveal_8.jpg

http://www.fazeshift.org/pics/albums/userpics/05-29-06/normal_DCP07474.JPG



I would take the smoothness of a camry motor over the thrashiness of a cobalt motor anyday, and it would still get better mpgs even with the ratings... Nuff said.

i mean come on, pick up any consumer reports and they always say the same thing, "while the 2.2 or 2.4 may be spirited, they lack the mpg's and refined-ness of the toyota counterparts"

Obviously you're a bit biased, but Toyota's shit can stink too. While I agree Toyota's V6's are smooth and quiet, I'm not so sure their 4's are anything special. The 2.4 in the tC I test drove was very boring power wise, and just as buzzy as any other DOHC 4 cyl I've driven.

[Deggy Fresh]

Toyota and GM battle for number one car maker in the world year after year...why wouldn't it make sense to work with eachother?

[sunrunner_pei]

Obviously you're a bit biased, but Toyota's shit can stink too. While I agree Toyota's V6's are smooth and quiet, I'm not so sure their 4's are anything special. The 2.4 in the tC I test drove was very boring power wise, and just as buzzy as any other DOHC 4 cyl I've driven.

I hear ya, Matt. The 1.8L VVT-i Toyota engine in my '06 Vibe (And in my co-worker's '07 Corolla) isn't anything special, both in terms of power and smoothness. It's dependable, but Toyota isn't the holy grail of automotive greatness.

[goredsox]

i hear what yor are saying but, say take our 1.8 VVT-i motor and the 2.2 Ecotec, only about a 20 hp difference. I dont believe the Ecotec even has VVT! I mean come on, get outta the stone age! Yes the chevy motor is quite spirited, it still gets horrendous mpg, i think CR got 24 averaged with it, they managed 29 in the Corolla and i believe 27 in the Vibe...

[Deggy Fresh]

doesnt the eco-tech have something similar too VVT-i or I-Vtec?

[Matt95GT]

i hear what yor are saying but, say take our 1.8 VVT-i motor and the 2.2 Ecotec, only about a 20 hp difference. I dont believe the Ecotec even has VVT! I mean come on, get outta the stone age! Yes the chevy motor is quite spirited, it still gets horrendous mpg, i think CR got 24 averaged with it, they managed 29 in the Corolla and i believe 27 in the Vibe...

The 2.2 Eco was the first incarnation of the Ecotec line. Since it has a bit more displacement, it didn't necessarily need a variable timing feature to make similar power. They have since added it in the 2.4 Eco anyway. RTFA - the 2.4 Ecotec is more powerful and is more fuel efficient than the Toyota engine.

Stone age? Why is Toyota still using stick-on fascia extensions on their "sporty" trims? That's very 80's. I've seen more than a few Corolla S's and Camry SE's with them falling off. How hard is it to offer a specific fascia for each trim?

doesnt the eco-tech have something similar too VVT-i or I-Vtec?

Yes, the 2.4 Ecotec version has it.

[Deggy Fresh]

you can ask any eco-tec lover that they would pick the 2.2L over the 2.4L...beause its lighter..

[sunrunner_pei]

i hear what yor are saying but, say take our 1.8 VVT-i motor and the 2.2 Ecotec, only about a 20 hp difference. I dont believe the Ecotec even has VVT! I mean come on, get outta the stone age! Yes the chevy motor is quite spirited, it still gets horrendous mpg, i think CR got 24 averaged with it, they managed 29 in the Corolla and i believe 27 in the Vibe...

As Matt already mentioned, the 2.4L EcoTec mentioned in the article DOES have variable valve timing, and is more powerful AND has better fuel economy than the Toyota engine mentioned.

But, I have to ask, why are you such a fan of VVT? Honestly, if an engine can make enough power and be fuel efficient without it, why would you want to have it? Do you enjoy peaky power? Do you enjoy waiting impatiently for the tach to climb before the engine actually starts to make decent power? I'd prefer the more linear power delivery of an engine without it.

[goredsox]

As Matt already mentioned, the 2.4L EcoTec mentioned in the article DOES have variable valve timing, and is more powerful AND has better fuel economy than the Toyota engine mentioned.

But, I have to ask, why are you such a fan of VVT? Honestly, if an engine can make enough power and be fuel efficient without it, why would you want to have it? Do you enjoy peaky power? Do you enjoy waiting impatiently for the tach to climb before the engine actually starts to make decent power? I'd prefer the more linear power delivery of an engine without it.

I just like my car that is all, i guess i am biased, obviously...:lol: I can count the number of cars that i have driven, seriously driven on 2 hands, and my corolla is by far the best all around. My corolla is fast to me, that sounds crazy because in reality the car really isnt overly powerful. I love the fact i can take on a full size truck at a stoplight and have no problems, i love the feel of one hand on the leather wrapped steering wheel, and another on the leather TRD shift knob.

also i dont really notice the "peaky" power, VVT starts to kick in around 3300 rpms, and the sweet spot at least for me is around 4000. a rarely have to hit the 6000 peak of 126hp. And in normal driving i never really see 3000 rpms, because she makes a decent amount of trq between 2000-3000.

You tell me, i have never driven a 99+ GA, i had my 93 3300, which even though it had 30 more HP and 60 more trq, felt more lethargic in everyday driving because of the extra weight and the crappy 3 speed auto. How would you compare the Vibe and the GA, im sure both have their ups and downs.

What i do miss from the GA is the headroom and ABS, i am almost afraid to drive the Rolla in the rain... Glad we dont get snow here. Also the headroom, since i have the moonroof, and i am 6'5, i have to have the sliding cover open all of the time so my head doesnt hit the roof...:lol:

[sunrunner_pei]

I just like my car that is all, i guess i am biased, obviously...:lol: I can count the number of cars that i have driven, seriously driven on 2 hands, and my corolla is by far the best all around. My corolla is fast to me, that sounds crazy because in reality the car really isnt overly powerful. I love the fact i can take on a full size truck at a stoplight and have no problems, i love the feel of one hand on the leather wrapped steering wheel, and another on the leather TRD shift knob.

also i dont really notice the "peaky" power, VVT starts to kick in around 3300 rpms, and the sweet spot at least for me is around 4000. a rarely have to hit the 6000 peak of 126hp. And in normal driving i never really see 3000 rpms, because she makes a decent amount of trq between 2000-3000.

You tell me, i have never driven a 99+ GA, i had my 93 3300, which even though it had 30 more HP and 60 more trq, felt more lethargic in everyday driving because of the extra weight and the crappy 3 speed auto. How would you compare the Vibe and the GA, im sure both have their ups and downs.

What i do miss from the GA is the headroom and ABS, i am almost afraid to drive the Rolla in the rain... Glad we dont get snow here. Also the headroom, since i have the moonroof, and i am 6'5, i have to have the sliding cover open all of the time so my head doesnt hit the roof...:lol:

There is no comparison with regards to power between the 1.8L VVT-i in the Vibe/Matrix/Corolla and the 3.4L V6 in the 1999-2005 Grand Am. You're right in how you felt about your old 3.3L, those did 'feel' very slow. I remember driving my cousin's then new '93 Grand Am SE with the 3.3L V6 back in 1993, and even compared to our pitifully slow 1991 Subaru Loyale wagon, it didn't seem to have much get up and go.

The Toyota 1.8L VVT-i engines are 'zippy' in the small and light vehicles such as the Corolla/Matrix/Vibe, but the engine is seriously lacking power when you compare it to other, much larger, engines.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Vibe. It suits my needs perfectly, is reliable (as it should be, it's still new!), gets great gas mileage, and works quite well. But don't think for one second that those engines are the best around in any category. :)

[goredsox]

There is no comparison with regards to power between the 1.8L VVT-i in the Vibe/Matrix/Corolla and the 3.4L V6 in the 1999-2005 Grand Am. You're right in how you felt about your old 3.3L, those did 'feel' very slow. I remember driving my cousin's then new '93 Grand Am SE with the 3.3L V6 back in 1993, and even compared to our pitifully slow 1991 Subaru Loyale wagon, it didn't seem to have much get up and go.

The Toyota 1.8L VVT-i engines are 'zippy' in the small and light vehicles such as the Corolla/Matrix/Vibe, but the engine is seriously lacking power when you compare it to other, much larger, engines.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Vibe. It suits my needs perfectly, is reliable (as it should be, it's still new!), gets great gas mileage, and works quite well. But don't think for one second that those engines are the best around in any category. :)

:agree: my thoughts exactly. My car is reliable, gets about 33 mpg, and suits the needs of a college student. I am actually thinking i might not go and jump to get the 09' model, they will still be in production in 6-7 years when i am in the market for a new car... but when i do get the XRS i might have a chance at taking you late model GA's on...:lol: I believe the new Scion xB's manage high 7 sec runs to 60, with the 2.4 camry motor, comparable to a 3.4 GA...

[jonnythan]

it may be time for the General to create the next generation Vibe from its own Delta platform instead. Dropping the 260 hp turbo DI 2.0 Ecotec from the HHR SS (and Cobalt SS, and Solstice GXP, and Sky Red Line) into the AWD Vibe might make a pretty sweet alternative to the new Caliber SRT-4 from Dodge.

That would rule.

[goredsox]

I went and found the thread where you posted about your vibe, wow it has been over a year! How many miles do ya have, ive had my rolla since April, and i have 8500 already...But yeah the matrix is cheaper out our way, we looked at the vibe as well, but we never found one under 19,000. Wheras a comparable Matrix would have been mid to upper 17,000. All my mom needed was Cruise, A/C, power windows/locks, and keyless entry... Your Vibe has Cruise i hope, you said it was bare bones base! I would die w/o cruise. Also i assume it has the steelies with caps right, the reason i ask is that my dialup wont show the pics in the forum... they are 205/55/16's right? My Corolla still only comes with 195/65/15's even though i have the alloys...

I picked up an old 06 Consumer reports and it told me that the Matrix XR is only about 400 more than the base Vibe, base Vibe-16,300 and the base Matrix-15,200 and XR Matrix-16,700. The Monsoon option on your says it cost $290. Did it also have the preferred package which adds-Cruise, Keyless entry, map lights and power windows, for $850 on the base model?

[sunrunner_pei]

I went and found the thread where you posted about your vibe, wow it has been over a year! How many miles do ya have, ive had my rolla since April, and i have 8500 already...But yeah the matrix is cheaper out our way, we looked at the vibe as well, but we never found one under 19,000. Wheras a comparable Matrix would have been mid to upper 17,000. All my mom needed was Cruise, A/C, power windows/locks, and keyless entry... Your Vibe has Cruise i hope, you said it was bare bones base! I would die w/o cruise. Also i assume it has the steelies with caps right, the reason i ask is that my dialup wont show the pics in the forum... they are 205/55/16's right? My Corolla still only comes with 195/65/15's even though i have the alloys...

I picked up an old 06 Consumer reports and it told me that the Matrix XR is only about 400 more than the base Vibe, base Vibe-16,300 and the base Matrix-15,200 and XR Matrix-16,700. The Monsoon option on your says it cost $290. Did it also have the preferred package which adds-Cruise, Keyless entry, map lights and power windows, for $850 on the base model?

Nope, mine is an absolute base, the only options being Monsoon & XM. Had I ordered it, it wouldn't have had those options either. I do wish it had the power package, though.

You can't directly compare the prices of the Vive and the Matrix, as they package the options differently. The base model Matrix doesn't include A/C, power mirrors, body color trim (mirrors, door handles), or the power inverter. I do agree though, once you start loading them up the price is very similar. An XR doesn't cost much more than a loaded up Vibe. But then again, why should it? They're the same car, just slightly different skin.

But price isn't everything. The Vibe has more warranty, and GM's interest rates are MUCH more competitive than Toyota's. Because of that a comparable Matrix to our Vibe would be $100 more /month. In the end, that makes a big difference to the buyer. And for what? The Toyota badge? No thanks. :) And don't bring up resale, as the Matrix and Vibe even out in resale value after just a few years.

Don't get me wrong, I DO like the Matrix. But the Vibe just suited us better.

[goredsox]

Oh no, i understand, the resale sucks on both...:lol: my mom traded her corolla after 3 months, it lost 3000 in value.

Are you sure about the Matrix, because im pretty sure they come with A/C base, the CR says it and when we went looking at them, it said it in the "Standard" area to the left of the window sticker... it doesnst come with anything power base, either an option or in a "preferred pack." All Corollas come with A/C so wouldnt all of the Matrices come with it as well, or are those canadians just different?

Glad you didnt get the AWD option, im looking here and with AWD, 0-60 came in 12 secs, and MPG average was only 24, dismal if you ask me. With FWD and an auto, brought it down to a "poky" as they put it 10.7 secs, and MPG up to 27... The 5 speed will be quicker ang get better MPG's though, more fun to drive as well, good for us...:lol:

Also did pontiace give you a complementary first oil change/rotation. And do you follow the 5000 mile interval, or are you a stone faced 3000 mile changer?

[sunrunner_pei]

Gary, you'd do yourself the biggest favor by not taking CR as gospel, and instead read other sources, such as the manufacturer's website. I haven't checked the American Toyota site, but for Canada, A/C is not standard in the Matrix. What may be misleading is that it would be considered standard on the Matrix XR.

No complimentary rotation/oil change, although I wouldn't take them up on it regardless. I do my own maintenance whenever possible. And yeah, I'm sticking to 3000 mile/5000 KM oil changes. :) I;m actually due for a change on the Vibe right now. :lol:

[goredsox]

Gary, you'd do yourself the biggest favor by not taking CR as gospel, and instead read other sources, such as the manufacturer's website. I haven't checked the American Toyota site, but for Canada, A/C is not standard in the Matrix. What may be misleading is that it would be considered standard on the Matrix XR.

No complimentary rotation/oil change, although I wouldn't take them up on it regardless. I do my own maintenance whenever possible. And yeah, I'm sticking to 3000 mile/5000 KM oil changes. :) I;m actually due for a change on the Vibe right now. :lol:

yep the Toyota site says A/C is standard, i knew i was correct. Well the CR book i have has all the models all the trim levels, all the options and prices, i find it quite handy.

the base only has a/c no power, you need the XR to get anything power, which we both already knew, im just restating.

you guys just get different options/packages...

The dummy light for maintenence is on huh...:lol:

[sunrunner_pei]

Nope, no light, just know I'm at 5000 KM.

I looked at the US site today too, but I saw absolutely no reference to A/C at all. Strange, eh? Not as standard or optional. Unless I'm blind. lol

[goredsox]

i just type www.toyota.com, go to cars click on the matrix, then click on base, it brings up the features page, click on interior and it says defroster-linked CFC free A/C-standard on Base and Xr models...

[Nighthawk243]

you can ask any eco-tec lover that they would pick the 2.2L over the 2.4L...beause its lighter..

A number would perfer the 2.0 LNF since its FI.


Anyways, the current versions of the Ecotec are smooth. What some may have been mentioning is the Family I Ecotecs that had less than 2.0L of displacement starting in 1996. It really wasnt until the Family II ones that they smoothed out.

Anyways, I can say that the L61 is much smoother than the Quad 4.

[JBlack16]

Sorry to say, but Toyota is taking over. Everyone will switch to import, gurantee it if you like or not.

[Deggy Fresh]

Sorry to say, but Toyota is taking over. Everyone will switch to import, gurantee it if you like or not.

not true....as of right now GM is the largest auto maker in the world...last time i check at least.

[bballr4567]

Sorry to say, but Toyota is taking over. Everyone will switch to import, gurantee it if you like or not.?????

Just wondering what makes you think that every single person in the US will switch to an "import."

[goredsox]

Sorry to say, but Toyota is taking over. Everyone will switch to import, gurantee it if you like or not. I wouldnt go that extreme, but whatever floats your boat...

[goredsox]

not true....as of right now GM is the largest auto maker in the world...last time i check at least. i believe in the 1st quarter of 07 Toyota unseated the GM crown, i believe John (aka TA^Guy) talked about it in the asylum...

[sunrunner_pei]

i believe in the 1st quarter of 07 Toyota unseated the GM crown, i believe John (aka TA^Guy) talked about it in the asylum...

They did, and GM regained it shortly after. However the 2 giants are very close. That said, I don't see the 'imports' taking the majority of sales anytime soon, the 'domestic' automakers still hold the majority of sales in North America.

[jonnythan]

i believe in the 1st quarter of 07 Toyota unseated the GM crown, i believe John (aka TA^Guy) talked about it in the asylum...
Just in that quarter. GM has led the others and currently leads for the year, I believe.

[Nighthawk243]

They're neck and neck basically. Any mistep could overthrow the other.

[bballr4567]

They're neck and neck basically. Any mistep could overthrow the other.
Oh like GM basically selling out the new malibu???

http://www.reuters.com/article/tnBasicIndustries-SP/idUSN2122055120071121

[Nighthawk243]

Have you seen the new malibu? That thing is mean as hell...

So mean, it demands you to buy one.

[bballr4567]

Yea I really like the new look of the malibu. My mom has a 99 and it has been a good car for her. The new ones are damn nice change of pace. The interior is so awesome. I want to see it in person.