electrical short? strange issue...

[dbotos]

So I went to drive the wife's 2001 Grand Am SE (w/ 2.4 L 4-cyl) earlier this week and it wouldn't start. All I got was a click/clunk from the engine bay. Turned the key back to off and tried again but this time there were no dash lights or starter sounds - just darkness and silence.

I checked the voltage at the battery connections and it was low (4.5 V), so I tried to jump it with another car, but that didn't help. The battery is pretty much brand new - manufactured and installed this September. I pulled each fuse, one by one, and they were all fine based on a visual inspection.

Up to this point, I'm thinking battery or starter problem.

But when I went to clean the battery connections, I noticed that I got full 12 V when I disconnected the negative cable and checked voltage between the negative on the battery itself and the positive cable. After doing some checks with the starter and then alternator disconnected, I discovered I could get 12 V with both battery cables connected if I disconnected the postive cable from the underhood fuse box / power distribution block.

I'm assuming this means that some hot wire somewhere is partially shorted to ground through resistance since it still has some voltage and no fuses were blown. In an effort to isolate what circuit it's in, I reconnected the postive cable to the underhood fuse box / distribution block and started yanking fuses from that box and the one on the left side of the dash. The one that seemed to make a difference was one of the big maxi fuses in the underhood block - a 30-amp'er labeled L/H BEC BATT2.

The strange part is that pulling that fuse only brought the voltage back to 10 V, not 12. Disconnect the negative cable and check at the battery and it's 12. I don't get it.

I dropped some $$$ on a factory service manual from Helm ( http://www.helminc.com/helm/homepage.asp?r= ) so I can look at wiring diagrams, but I'm wide open to any suggestions/ideas while I wait for that thing to get here.

Another thought is that it could be something with the ignition switch or related ignition security stuff - my wife noticed recently that she could pull the key out while the car was running. But pulling the 30A IGN SW maxi fuse had no effect on the voltage...

Thoughts?

TIA,
Dave

[llsht14]

i have the same problem and i cant figure it out. when i pull that fuse it just drops the voltage a little bit

[Rockfan1815]

hey, welcome to the forum

if you both would like detailed wiring diagrams for you cars just let me know your email. i get a free subscription to a automotive repair reference site that has wiring diagrams and repair procedures for millions of car and truck through my local library card. they are only in pdf and i cant post them directly here. my email is rockfan1815@yahoo.com

[Rockfan1815]

a 30-amp'er labeled L/H BEC BATT2

just to make sure are you positive its this fuse, im looking at the power dist diagram trying to think what could be the cause.

[Rockfan1815]

ok after looking even harder i found that fuse on the diagramhttp://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/rockfan1815/other/2001gawiring.jpg

[dbotos]

Rockfan - thanks for the diagram.

I went down to the car armed with the diagram to see if I could figure anything out and when I hooked the negative cable back up it was reading 12.6 V between the cables again! The only thing I did between yesterday when I left it and when I went back just now was use that battery to test a blower motor from another car.

So, I jumped in and tried to start it up. It made a half-hearted attempt and then went silent. Still read 12.6 V afterwards. Tried again, but nothing at all. Checked voltage at the alternator, starter, and underhood fuseblock and they were all 12.6 V. Nothing inside the car seems to work - no dash lights when you turn the key and no power locks or dome light when I fiddle with the switches.

So, I'm still stumped. What are the symptoms of a bad ignition switch or related security stuff?

[tenspeed]

Put the battery on a charger then hook up the wires.

Something is draining it. I would guess the BCM.

[lvemy3100]

its funny i have this issue too but it happens very randomly and I just havent really had the time to look into it since I spend most of my time with CS and making parts... basically anytime it happens I open the hood jiggle my wires around a bit and the car starts right back up...

I have no clue why other than there is possible damage to a wire that just cant be seen.. also the car will only do this when attempting to start.. there is power all the way till you actually try to crank it at which point the whole electrical system seems to shut down in the car

i have dealt with a it a couple times its not a big deal to me but the first time I was pulling relays and fuses like crazy trying to figure it out... now Ihave a voltmeter hooked up to my cig lighter and when i see the volts lower than 12.3 almost everytime its cause of this "issue".. after wiggling the wires under the hood the volts will jump back up and the car starts and drives perfect.. takes me 10 seconds or less to get going now

another thing that seems strange is that the car never stops working while driving but rather only just refuses to start once shut down

If i find out more about this I will let everyone know but the only thing I can think of right now is to rewire everything from the battery (all ground and positive wires) and see what happens..

I would also like to add that a battery charger will not help with this issue as it seems to be something to do with power not getting to where it needs to be.. i have even gone so far as to use a voltmeter at the batt when cranking and can see the volts stay the same at the battery but all of my interior lights including my voltmeter in the cig lighter go dead..

i just hope its something real simple taht everyone can fix on their own...

[rixGAphx]

Your battery will read *about* 12V 'til the cows come home, because that's the voltage that 6-cell lead-acid batteries produce (actually, more like 13.2).
But the AMPERAGE, being the amount of 'force' behind the voltage, could be so low that it won't turn diddly, much less an engine.
Basically, a volt meter is worthless for checking the strength of a battery.

Even if it was manufactured in September, it could be shot by now.
Sep/Oct/Nov = 3 months; about the right time for an endemic charging system problem to re-surface after replacing a battery but never solving the underlying problem.

Check your entire charging system: Alternator, Battery, and,........
BATTERY CABLES/CONNECTIONS:

GA Batt Cable Service

Battery cable ends must be clean and tight and shiny bright.
Even the best new alternator and the best new battery can't provide adequate power (volts and amps) if the connections are so dirty/loose/corroded that power doesn't flow thru them.
Bad connections will also kill both the alternator and the battery very quickly.

So, inspect/clean/repair/replace/tighten all THREE ends of both cables to provide maximum flow of electrical power.
Disconnect cables: NEG (Black) first, then POS (Red).
CUT THE MOLDED RUBBER BOOTS from the battery connections, since water seeps thru them and corrodes the copper wire into useless powder.
(This step is VERY important. You can't just look at the outside and think, "They look alright".)

Dissolve corrosion with a paste solution of baking soda and water, applied with an old toothbrush.
Scrape/sand/wire-brush all the metal (cable ends and batt terminals) to shiny metal.
In an emergency, Coca-Cola poured over the corrosion will partially-clean it.

Pay attention to the Body Ground: This is a smaller Black (Neg) wire that comes from the battery terminal and attaches directly to the bodywork, somewhere near the left (Driver) side hood edge. This is a source of rust, and must be kept clean and shiny. (This is the ‘3rd end’ of the NEG cable.)
The POS cable has a ‘3rd end’ that connects inside the Main Junction Box, about 12 inches from the battery.

Reconnect cables: POS (Red) first, then NEG (Black); this is OPPOSITE of the way you disconnected them.
Replace the cut-off boots with new aftermarket slip-on rubber boots to protect against short-circuiting while allowing for future inspection and service.
* * *
Still having trouble? Verify that the heavy cable from the alternator, around the back of the engine and connecting to the starter solenoid, has good connections and conductivity. The alternator can't charge the battery if this cable is bad.

Weird things happen to GA's when the cables aren't in pristine shape.
ABS is a particularly sensitive system, and will often show a random 'ABS' light though nothing else appears to be wrong.

Battery cable/connection service is necessary and cheap ($5 for new rubber boots), so there's no downside to servicing them immediately.

Good luck,
-Rick

PS: That single wire to the underhood fuse block is SUPPOSED to be 'always hot', and it WILL draw some current at all times.
Computer, clock, alarm, etc.
If the glovebox lamp or trunk lamp are improperly 'on' at all times, then they will discharge the battery and cause a greater AMPERAGE draw thru this fuse (though they won't have any significant affect on the voltage).

But basically, look inside that POS red rubber battery cable connection; if it's as chitty as mine was, it will:
* Prevent adequate power from getting out of the battery and into the starter motor; and,
* Prevent alternator power from getting from the starter solenoid (that's where the alternator output fusible link is connected) and into the battery to recharge it.

[rixGAphx]

...this issue as it seems to be something to do with power not getting to where it needs to be

i have even gone so far as to use a voltmeter at the batt when cranking and can see the volts stay the same at the battery but all of my interior lights including my voltmeter in the cig lighter go dead.Exactly.

That's the difference between volts (stay more-or-less the same) and amps (you don't have enough).

Think of it this way:
If you get a little plastic case at Radio Shack that holds 8 'AA' batteries in series (one-into-the-other), then you have a 12V battery (8 x 1.5 V each).
That will power a couple little 12 V flashlight bulbs just fine.
Or one 12V trunk light bulb.

But it won't power a 55W headlight bulb (also 12V), and sure won't crank an engine.

-Rick

[lvemy3100]

Exactly.

That's the difference between volts (stay more-or-less the same) and amps (you don't have enough).

Think of it this way:
If you get a little plastic case at Radio Shack that holds 8 'AA' batteries in series (one-into-the-other), then you have a 12V battery (8 x 1.5 V each).
That will power a couple little 12 V flashlight bulbs just fine.
Or one 12V trunk light bulb.

But it won't power a 55W headlight bulb (also 12V), and sure won't crank an engine.

-Rick

ok i know you are trying to help and you did a great job of letting others know what to do to help figure this out.. but i think that you are missing MY point as I am aware of how electrical systems work and how to maintain them(I better.. lol)..

everything works fine including my headlights turning on when i turn the key to the on position... its when i actually try to crank/start the vehicle that everthing drains outs and wont come back on..
then with literally a jiggle of the under hood wires (which all are visually perfect condition) and everything is perfectly normal again... leading me to beleive that possibly a wire is internally damaged

btw- battery is an optima yellow top.. underhood wires are all new as of 6 months ago and this only started 2 months ago.. also the alt works perfect

[tenspeed]

If moving the wires around "fixes" the problem, it has to be either a loose connection/crimp or a "bad" section of wire. Reread the part of Rick's answer where it says to cut the molded rubber boots. It's about a third of the way down.

[lvemy3100]

If moving the wires around "fixes" the problem, it has to be either a loose connection/crimp or a "bad" section of wire. Reread the part of Rick's answer where it says to cut the molded rubber boots. It's about a third of the way down.

ok again I will restate taht that car was already rewired 6 months ago (by me)... there arent any molded rubber boots on the battery terminals.. my battery terminals are fine... crimps are fine and wires all physically look fine on the outside.. and NOTHING is loose


my thought is that there is damage internally to one of the sections of wire and this is why I cant figure out the problem...

for me the solution is cheap.. just replace one wire after another till it stops happening since I dont feel like messing with poking at my wires with a multimeter...

the main reason this is confusing to me is cause the wires are all new so is the batt and alt... I didnt do anything to disturb the wires till after this started happening so how did they damage themselves??? lol

[rixGAphx]

Ivemy, your problem only happens when cranking for a start.
What DOES happen when turning the key to 'start' for cranking?
* The cranking goes strong, but the engine doesn't fire?
* The cranking is weak, AND the engine won't fire?
* No cranking, just a 'click' (the solenoid) and drop in voltage?
* * If just a click, do the headlights/domelight dim a lot?

You entered this thread saying, "i have this issue too.", but you didn't describe YOUR exact symptoms.
The 'issue' which we've been discussing was described in dboto's first post as "All I got was a click/clunk from the engine bay."

Since it's solely related to the cranking effort, I would look at the cable connections to the solenoid, and to the solenoid itself.
The solenoid terminals are junction blocks for both POS (alternator fusible link, power to ignition, and power from battery) and multiple NEG grounds.
I noticed on mine that these became heavily coated/caked with oil, which is an excellent electrical insulator.

'Jiggling the wires' may improve the current flow thru the connection, similar to what would happen inside a wire's insulation.

Hope this helps,
-Rick

[dbotos]

I don't think battery current capacity is an issue with my problem since jumping didn't seem to work.

All of my main connections are clean. Red boot got the axe a while back when I noticed greenish-white stuff growing out of it. Cleaned everything up and put a new terminal on that cable. Black boot is still on there and looks immaculate from all angles that I can see into it with a flashlight. Starter, alternator, body, and engine block connections are all clean too.

[lvemy3100]

Ivemy, your problem only happens when cranking for a start.
What DOES happen when turning the key to 'start' for cranking?
* The cranking goes strong, but the engine doesn't fire?
* The cranking is weak, AND the engine won't fire?
* No cranking, just a 'click' (the solenoid) and drop in voltage?
* * If just a click, do the headlights/domelight dim a lot?

You entered this thread saying, "i have this issue too.", but you didn't describe YOUR exact symptoms.
The 'issue' which we've been discussing was described in dboto's first post as "All I got was a click/clunk from the engine bay."

Since it's solely related to the cranking effort, I would look at the cable connections to the solenoid, and to the solenoid itself.
The solenoid terminals are junction blocks for both POS (alternator fusible link, power to ignition, and power from battery) and multiple NEG grounds.
I noticed on mine that these became heavily coated/caked with oil, which is an excellent electrical insulator.

'Jiggling the wires' may improve the current flow thru the connection, similar to what would happen inside a wire's insulation.

Hope this helps,
-Rick


lol.. i guess i did miss the part about the click/clunk.. (selective reading i guess) mine does absolutely nothing and everything dies completely inside the car including the headlights which were on till the attempt at cranking..

like i previously said though I will be replacing wires one at a time till i find the culprit.. might as well start with the battery to the starter...

[dbotos]

update:

I was searching around on the site here and came across the 10-minute passlock bypass thing where you leave the key at the "on" position for 10 minutes. With all the fuses in, I wasn't getting 12 V at the battery, so I figured maybe it's something security-related that is grounding out or dropping the voltage.

For whatever reason, the 10-minute thing brings the voltage back up to 12 and the body electrical stuff (radio, blinkers, dome light, etc) all work, but when I turn the key to start, all I get is a click and everything dies.

I hooked up an OBD-II scanner to the DLC port before attempting to start the car, and it established a link, but reported no trouble codes. I'm assuming I need to get the car started in order for the modules to spit stuff out. Unfortunately, that's like the free DVD on how to setup your DVD player. :roll2:

The instrument panel lights check appears normal when I turn the key to "on". The security light stayed solid and I didn't see anything else blinking or acting unusual.

Does this sound like a passlock issue? I thought the car was supposed to start right up after you did the 10 minutes at "on", turned it to "off", and then tried to start.

[dbotos]

Okay, now the 10-minute thing doesn't work either to bring the voltage back up...

[dbotos]

update:

Either ignition switch/cylinder or BCM. Should know more tomorrow...

[kyboman]

Sounds like a shorted starter.

[Pontiac]

When I had my starter replaced on my Sunbird, there was a loose connection. It basically did the same thing. The wires going to the battery were nice and tight and all clean. I had the screw in type, not the posts at the battery.

So one day, my car was dead in the driveway. It'd turn over a couple times, but eventually just flat lined. Nothing on the dial, no tones, nothing. I got under the hood, and started wiggling wires. I heard a click, and then nothing. Wiggled again, and this time I heard the fan kick in. So I went and turned on my head lights to see WTF was up while I was playing with my cables. (haw haw) I eventually gave up because the headlights just it wouldn't stay on.

Got it towed to the garage, they put it up on the lift, and boss man of the shop checked his employees work. It was a wire that wasn't screwed into place properly, or was loose, or something to that effect. Free bee for me since I've given him a years salary at least in repairs. ;)