1994 2.3L SOHC - chain noise?

[drakedad3]

This is my first post, and I'll admit i'm not a car buff, just a GA owner and happy to keep my '94 SE running if possible. don't have much money so i'm diving into the problem myself and i'm probly in over my head. Can't afford service $$ for a mechanic. I've searched and hopefully am not duplicating an exact thread, so here goes. 8th digit in VIN is a "3" so I'm interpreting this as a SOHC 4 cyl 2.3L engine. It has 96K on it, all major parts on car are probly original. I've owned this car for 3-4 years. Tranny has slipped a couple of times in last 6 months and is making the predictable "i'm wearing out" noises; but i'll deal with that later. it still works so not fixing it yet.

Car runs great for basic transportation, despite the expected lemon issues i've read about with this engine. I took it off the road and put it up on stands in my garage when i kept hearing an intermittent noise that comes from somewhere around the timing chain cover. I'm thinking this isn't good. The noise is loud and i would call it a squeal. it might last for 3-5 second intervals, been doing this for a couple of weeks. does it mainly at idle i think.

i wanted to look at the chain, so i went as far as i could with a Haynes manual, and stopped because i can't figure out how to get the motor mount bracket off of the front of engine. Passenger Motor mount itself is already out. I currently have the engine resting on the frame of the car once i realized that it could do that - i think without any damage. I did try moving the engine different ways and can't remove the last 2 bolts to the mount bracket because they back out right into the psgr side wheel well and then won't back out far enough to remove. I'm not giving up but don't have very many tools and esp don't have a lift to get engine out of car. I do have a floor jack with a block of wood under the oil pan when i'm lifting from bottom.

Am i going in the right direction to find the noise? what should i do next? don't mind dismantling the car, but just don't know what next? Assuming this noise is the chain, i'm not even sure what i should do once i get the timing cover off; but i can follow instructions.

thanks for any help. - dennis

[Matt95GT]

I would start trying to narrow down the location of the noise better. It could be any number of things... serpentine belt, tensioner, accessories (alternator, AC compressor clutch), timing chain, water pump etc. I would try the "listen through a tube" trick to help find a more exact location. Doing that, you should be able to at least narrow it down to belt area, timing chain, or water pump (behind timing housing under exhaust manifold). When my 94's water pump started going, it made a faint whining sound.

[drakedad3]

Thanks, Matt.
Not exactly what I want to hear - as i have everything down to the motor mount bracket torn apart, including all the coolant is already drained.

But maybe this weekend or hopefully sooner i can start getting it back together enough to listen again. I didn't think about doing a more complete check and just assumed I'd need to dig into the problem to see it. Lesson learned to chk first next time!

Serpentine belt and alternator were changed out 3 years (~20K miles) ago. I think that the serp belt tensioner was left alone though. would it make the noise? Water pump is probly original, and i can probly change that out for preventive mtc. while i'm around the area.

I have no working A/C, so the compressor clutch is not even clutching i don't think.

does that help? or should i still put everything back together? you have a good idea, but i'm going backwards in a way here.

Also, there is a note in the Haynes Manual to REPLACE the motor mount bracket bolts (3) if they are ever removed due to maintaining proper bolt stretch. If i need to do this I'll do it once i know things are fixed - assuming i can get the bolts out.

thanks for your help!
dennis

[Matt95GT]

Serpentine belt and alternator were changed out 3 years (~20K miles) ago. I think that the serp belt tensioner was left alone though. would it make the noise? Water pump is probly original, and i can probly change that out for preventive mtc. while i'm around the area.

I have no working A/C, so the compressor clutch is not even clutching i don't think.


Don't rule any of that out. 3 years is a long time. At one point, I went through an alternator every year. Tensioner can and will make noise if worn and too lose/tight.

Actually the AC compressor clutch only makes noise when it is disengaged. That failure is common. It sounds like rubbing metal.

[drakedad3]

From what I've learned so far, here are the possibilities for the intermittent noise I hear coming from the front of the engine:
1) Serpentine belt (appears in good shape - a little shiny but no cracks)

2) anything riding on the Serpentine belt's 4 pulleys:
a) Serp belt tensioner b) A/C compressor or clutch c) Alternator d) Crankshaft harmonic balancer

I have checked all these pulleys and the only one that is "loose" is just the A/C clutch. I can spin it around with a little effort - some resistance. nothing seems wrong at least visually

3) Water Pump (dunno)

4) Timing chain (no clue yet what shape it's in)
a) Slapping the inside of the chain cover b) worn and stretched c) any # of parts inside the chain cover that are old and worn


Narrowing it down, I'm trying to decide if I should continue on with my stubborn effort of removing the chain cover now ... or if i should put the engine back in line and re-install the motor mount. Then run the engine and listen thru a pipe for a better idea of where the noise is.

Any voters? When / if you vote, can you give this rookie a clue as to how much play i have on the transaxle side of the engine? I can't see those mounts well at all, and am hoping i have a lot of slop so i can jack the front of the engine up to better access the motor mount bracket, etc. I need to put the 1 screw back in that i removed from the motor mount bracket; but I don't want to break anything and haven't ever done this. Right now, the engine is shifted over to about 1 inch from the passgr side wheel wall. I have almost no room to get in there.

Any help here? much appreciated.

[Brad97GS]

Hmm, just a thought here, but if you decide to put things back together, perhaps one way to narrow down the noises would be to run the engine without a serpentine belt. Since the Q4's water pump runs on the timing chain, you don't risk overheating by running without a belt. That way, if you hear the noise, you'll know it's not something to do with the belt or its accessories. Then, you can go from there (using Matt's suggestion).

[Matt95GT]

I like Brad's suggestion. To take that a step farther... you can spin each accessory by hand before reassembly... AC compressor (disengaged), alternator, tensioner. All should spin freely, with no wobble or noise. I was able to find that it was my alternator bearings squeaking in this manor.

[drakedad3]

Brad, Matt,
Thanks for your suggestions. Your help is working out nicely so far. I went back to work on the car and have it all put back together with the exception of the serpentine belt. i spun the tensioner, alternator, and A/C compressor pulleys and all spin freely - no noise and they don't wobble.

I'll find out some more hopefully tomorrow. I just need to put coolant back in the tank and then start her up.

I may need to drive the car for a bit without the belt on, because the noise may not happen right away. Can i just add water to the tank for now? I need to flush the system out anyway as it has been since 2004 on changing coolant.

Any harm in going with just water for about a 5 minute drive? Also, i'm assuming the battery won't be drained too low, since the alternator is out of function temporarily?

[Matt95GT]

Water is fine for temporary use, and I doubt Dallas has freezing temperatures right now. I have run water in mine a couple times temporarily.

The battery will be fine for a 5 minute drive. I would leave the headlights, HVAC fan, etc off though. I used to take my belt off for drag races... and I've gotten more than 5 minutes out of it.

[drakedad3]

You guys' idea worked well. My son and i took the car out after we filled it with water. Drove it without the serpentine belt, then stopped when we heard the noise again. The loud squeal did come back, so we eliminated many things by this test.

The loud noise is intermittent, so i tried to keep listening between squeals. I used a metal tube - switching back-n-forth from timing cover in 2-3 different spots - then to the water pump. It is a hard call, but I believe the sound transfers up through the timing cover from the water pump. I can hear what sounds like dry bearings spinning around and chirping continuously when i set down on top of the water pump. Then when the squeal happens it is deafening so i can't tell much till it stops. But i think i can hear the bearing chirp more distinct on top of the wp - the chirp doesn't seem clear when i'm at the timing cover.

so I'm voting for the water pump. does this make sense?

[Matt95GT]

Water pump is very plausible. Even if that is wrong... the water pump will go eventually, plus it is easier to change than anything inside the timing housing.

[Brad97GS]

I agree with Matt - try changing the water pump first. It is definitely easier than the alternative, and it's likely good maintenance anyway. I'm glad that you are getting somewhere in this troubleshooting!

[drakedad3]

Sorry for the delay ... life is happening at the same time i'm trying to put my car back together. We got the water pump off. I read some of the posts and was fearing the worst, but it went pretty smoothly after we got the exhaust manifold off. I have paid for the new pump and will pick it up from O'Reilly Auto tomorrow. Here are some concerns i have:

1) Pipe coming up from the lower radiator hose that bends and goes vertical up to water pump is very "corroded" on the inside. it shows quite a large build up of debris on the pipe walls. i can run my drill through it with a wire brush bit and can clean out the top part. what should i do to clean the entire system out? Never used radiator flush before. sounds like that is needed. coolant looked brownish green coming out. no mixture of oil thank goodness. if i need to flush the system (appears that way), do i need to spend needless time with the wire brush and drill? or will the flush do a good enough job?

2) Water pump is driven by the gear inside the timing cover. Gear looks good, but grease if dry & brittle. what do i clean that up with and what kind of grease goes back in there?

3) i'm trying to scrape the gaskets off the head and off the timing cover, and plan to use my drill and the wire brush. is there an easier way to do this? putty knife isn't cutting it.

I'll be buying a new thermostat too. It seats into the metal pipe that is full of crud. any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance for the help.
dennis

[Matt95GT]

Sorry for the delay ... life is happening at the same time i'm trying to put my car back together. We got the water pump off. I read some of the posts and was fearing the worst, but it went pretty smoothly after we got the exhaust manifold off. I have paid for the new pump and will pick it up from O'Reilly Auto tomorrow. Here are some concerns i have:

1) Pipe coming up from the lower radiator hose that bends and goes vertical up to water pump is very "corroded" on the inside. it shows quite a large build up of debris on the pipe walls. i can run my drill through it with a wire brush bit and can clean out the top part. what should i do to clean the entire system out? Never used radiator flush before. sounds like that is needed. coolant looked brownish green coming out. no mixture of oil thank goodness. if i need to flush the system (appears that way), do i need to spend needless time with the wire brush and drill? or will the flush do a good enough job?

2) Water pump is driven by the gear inside the timing cover. Gear looks good, but grease if dry & brittle. what do i clean that up with and what kind of grease goes back in there?

3) i'm trying to scrape the gaskets off the head and off the timing cover, and plan to use my drill and the wire brush. is there an easier way to do this? putty knife isn't cutting it.

I'll be buying a new thermostat too. It seats into the metal pipe that is full of crud. any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance for the help.
dennis

No need to apologize... it's your car. :lol:

1. I would clean the crud out where possible. My coolant was fairly clean when I did this, so I didn't wire brush everything. I did spend some time cleaning out the water pump cover though, using shop rags. When I put the new pump in, I filled the system with water and radiator flush. Ran that for a while, drained and refilled with new coolant. I'd probably flush twice if the system was really nasty.

2. The gear? Or the splines that mate to the water pump shaft? As recommended by the factory service manual, I used white grease to lube the splines of the water pump shaft before installing. You shouldn't have to open the timing cover to change the pump - that's only for 96+ 2.4's.

3. Don't use a drill/wire brush on mating surfaces... it will scratch the hell out of it. Use a gasket scraper or razor blades. My gaskets (the water pump cover one in particular) were really crusted on, so it took a little elbow grease to remove using a razor.

As for the t-stat, remember to use the 180 F one that the 94-95's came with. Use a new gasket on it too - that is the one gasket I had to buy separately that didn't come in the water pump gasket kit.

[drakedad3]

Makes sense. Here is where i'm currently at:
1) haven't flushed the system yet, but did clean everything up. Will flush at least once and see what the flush looks like and may flush it again. i ran water thru the head opening at the pump, and in several other hoses, etc. to help rinse out the major junk. I used a screwdriver to knock off the deposits that were inside the t-stat pipe - then rinsed it out.

2) someone recommended carb cleaner and that worked well to clean out the brittle grease. You are right, I'm not opening the timing cover, so my only concern is with lubing where the splines receive the water pump shaft. I'll look for the white grease. i was going to use the multipurpose lube that i have in my grease gun (for ball joints).

3) Oops. I didn't think about the scratching as being a problem, so that is already done i'm afraid. I cleaned off the gasket material from the head and from the water pump housing using a drill with a wire brush attachment. I was planning to use the new gaskets that came with the water pump - just dry. but now since i have some grooves / scratches in the mating surfaces, should i use some adhesive or some type of gasket sealer - or something that would fill in the cracks - then assemble the gasket?

T-stat - thanks for the reminder about the 180 degree t-stat. I'll ask O'Reilly Auto for that gasket. My pump came with every gasket except for that one.

[Matt95GT]

Makes sense. Here is where i'm currently at:
1) haven't flushed the system yet, but did clean everything up. Will flush at least once and see what the flush looks like and may flush it again. i ran water thru the head opening at the pump, and in several other hoses, etc. to help rinse out the major junk. I used a screwdriver to knock off the deposits that were inside the t-stat pipe - then rinsed it out.

2) someone recommended carb cleaner and that worked well to clean out the brittle grease. You are right, I'm not opening the timing cover, so my only concern is with lubing where the splines receive the water pump shaft. I'll look for the white grease. i was going to use the multipurpose lube that i have in my grease gun (for ball joints).

3) Oops. I didn't think about the scratching as being a problem, so that is already done i'm afraid. I cleaned off the gasket material from the head and from the water pump housing using a drill with a wire brush attachment. I was planning to use the new gaskets that came with the water pump - just dry. but now since i have some grooves / scratches in the mating surfaces, should i use some adhesive or some type of gasket sealer - or something that would fill in the cracks - then assemble the gasket?

T-stat - thanks for the reminder about the 180 degree t-stat. I'll ask O'Reilly Auto for that gasket. My pump came with every gasket except for that one.

1. Sounds like a good start.

2. I just used some general purpose white grease. It shouldn't matter much... just don't want the 2 piece to permanently become one, that's all.

3. I put a very thin bead of RTV on the scratched mating surface before you put the gasket on and assemble. Even without the scratches, you'd want RTV handy anyway - I used to a tiny dot or two to hold each gasket in place, otherwise it is impossible to get everything back together without the gaskets falling out. Just don't use any between the water pump and the timing chain cover - you don't want RTV on the drive splines.

[drakedad3]

Matt, Brad,
Wanted to post back and thank u guys for all the help. You helped save me lots of $$ by changing out the water pump myself. End result, no more squealing noise, and the engine runs great. After 3 days, no leaks, and no overheating - coolant is clean and full. All is good. The probelm (noise) was the water pump.

flushed out the cooling system really good. Replaced pump and t-stat and manifold gasket. I love this car, runs great ... again.

Thanks again & take care,
dennis

[Matt95GT]

Anytime. Glad to hear everything worked out for you. :)

[Brad97GS]

Glad to see it worked out!