"Bad Gas", Grand Am won't start

[14philips]

I filled my tank at SinGin in NJ. I drove about a mile or so, and the car started hesitating..then it seemed to level out (although the engine seemed a bit louder than normal) till I reached my destination about 25 miles down the highway. I parked it and started it about 6 hours later. It started, but the engine was clicking very loudly, similar to a lawn mower. It ran for about 5 minutes before it stalled. I tried to start it a bunch of times, but it would run for a second or two, sputter, and cut out. The engine would cut out even quicker when I attempted to put it in 'drive' or 'nuetral'. Starting attempts sounded worse and worse, until finally, the engine refuses to turn over, and makes a squealing noise when trying to crank it. I had to have it towed home.

I have heard that several Lukoil stations in NJ distributed bad gas, stalling around 75 cars. Could I have received bad gas as well? If so, what to do now? I am thinking of dropping the gas tank and replacing the fuel filter. Should I take any other steps?

Other notes:
- When I parked it the first time, the car was on flat ground. Then I started it 6 hours later and moved it into a semi-steep driveway (gas tank at the bottom of hill). This is when it first stalled.

- I added two containers of "HEET" with no success.


Thank you for your help!

[rixGAphx]

No need to drop the gas tank.
It's great upper-body exercise, but not necessary to cure your problem.

Yes, you could have gotten 'bad gas.'

I saw that news article, and whatever tanker trucker was delivering the crap got it from somewhere; a couple other 'gypsy' tankers undoubtably got some of the crap, too, and they delivered IT somewhere.
As I recall, the crap in the news article was actually water, plain water.
Water is 1.5 times as heavy as gasoline, and goes RIGHT to the bottom of the tank. It is then picked up immediately, sent to the engine, and the engine stalls.
That's why this incident was so newsworthy: Everybody stopped so quickly, kinda 'radiating' out just a couple miles from 'point zero' of the contamination location.

Your symptoms are NOT related to their water contamination.
Even if you had gotten only a 1/2 cupful of water (within a 12-gallon fill-up), we wouldn't be having this discussion.
You would have stalled completely, or you would have floundered lightly for a few miles and then normal operation would have resumed.
Instead, you managed 25 miles, being at least 1/2 hour and 1 gallon of liquid (albeit 'contaminated' liquid with poor engine performance).

It is more likely that you got gasoline heavily contaminated with diesel or heating oil.
I got that once at a local convenience store in Phoneix, decades ago when I was driving a Mopar with a carb'd I-6 engine. That old beast was strong enough to run on the crap 'til I drained the tank.

You need to do the same, since diesel is nearly the same density as gasoline and therefore won't 'stratify' the way water will.
* Get a container(s) of adequate size to recive the contents of your tank (11 gals, or whatever); arrange for some sort of safe transport and disposal.
* Get a new fuel filter.
* Get an assistant and fire extinguisher.
* Get a length of fuel tubing adequate to reach from the FF output fitting to your containers.
* Jack and support the car, leave the old FF in place for now, and connect the drain tube to the FF output fitting.
* Using the ignition key in the 'on' (not 'crank') position, turn the fuel pump 'on' and let it pump the contents from your tank into the container(s).
* The FP is capable of about a gallon-per-minute, so this won't take very long.
The FP is only lubricated and cooled by fuel flowing through it.
When the flow starts 'sputtering', stop!
* Add a gallon of new clean gasoline to the tank, and let the FP cool for 5 or 10 minutes while the 'new' gas mixes with the dregs of the diesel crap.
* Resume, and pump-out the 1 gallon.
* Add ANOTHER 1 gallon of good gas to the tank.
* Change FF to the new one, and reconnect the plumbing.
* Connect the 'drain tube' to the fuel rail at the Fuel Pressure Regulator, and pump the good gas through the system to force-out the approximately 1 quart of crap in the lines. Be VERY careful with raw gasoline under the hood where there are sparks!!!

Done.

This is the same process a shop will do.
You can call for a quote, should take them about 1 hour at $80 shop rate.
If you can prove the SinGinstation caused your problem, they will hafta pay; good luck with that one.

Hope this helps,
-Rick

PS: Water contamination of gasoline, at the delivery-line level, is very rare.

Diesel conamination happens all the time, since diesel/home heating oil/gasoline are pumped cross-country in the SAME PIPE!!
The pumpers just switch-over from one product to the other every 6-24 hours, meaning there's a 'slug' of a few hundered gallons of 'mixed petroleum liquid' available for sale every 6-12 hours.
If it goes into some sort of incinerator, no big deal.
If it goes into a diesel truck, the gasoline *might* blow the thing up.
If it goes into a car's gas tank, it may leave you stranded (if the concentrtion is high enough), or if mixed with good gas (either in your tank or in the stations UG storage tank) there might be no noticable effect.

Every once in a while, some low-life tanker operator will knowingly buy this crap, then sell it at a discount to some mom-n-pop convenience store.
Rarely will this stuff make it into the 'legitimate' delivery stream of reputable gas stations.
My own experience decades ago was with a reputable chain of convenience stores who were generally selling 4-5 cents under the 'majors', so I was pissed but not completely surprised.

[rixGAphx]

'99 V6, 9-yrs old, about 110k miles?

First, you must make sure you have 'bad gas.'

Even though there's a strong association, timing-wise, with your fill-up and the onset of bad engine performance, these symptoms could more easily apply to a Fuel Pump on its way out/final demise.

The association of 'bad gas' and 'New Jersey' (there's gotta be a dozen bad jokes there :roll: ) doesn't wash in this case, since the news article was about water contamination and yours clearly is NOT water; might be diesel, but that could happen as easily in AZ or Or or FL, etc.

First step would be sniffing: Diesel has a distinctive odor; if you have enough diesel in the gas to cause trouble, then sniffing the raw fuel (just 'bleed' a little onto a rag from the pressure test port, the tire-like valve on the fuel rail, below/behind the powersteering pump).

If diesel odor is present, then proceed with the drianing in my above post.
If not found, then proceed with determining if the FP is producing adequate pressure.
It has spinning vanes with rubber edge seals, and they wear over time.
First sign of worn vane seals is that it takes a few seconds of cranking (while the FP develops pressure) to start the engine each morning.
Next sign is poor performance when higher-pressure/higher-flow is needed (e.g., acceleartion onto a highway, and at highway speeds above 65 mph).
Finally, the FP doesn't even produce the 30 psi minimum for the injectors to 'squirt'.
So your symptoms, since leaving the gas station, correspond to a FP on its last legs (as well as contaminated fuel).
But IMO the FP is more likely, especially if this is the original 9-yr old FP.

Finally, even if not diesel, and even if the FP vanes are fine, you *might* have gotten gas with SO MUCH suspended debris (sand, leaves, insects, whatever) that either":
* The 'sock' inlet to the FP (inside the tank) has been completely clogged so it can't suck-in any fuel; or,
* The filter has become completely clogged (which would also fit your symptoms).

I think, in retrospect, I would:
* Check for odor; if diesel, proceed with draining.
* If no diesel odor, then:
* * Replace fuel filter (yours prolly hasn't been changed in the last 30k miles, anyways, since most aren't).
* * Check for fuel pressure (should be 45psi at the rail with engine 'off', ignition 'on').

Hope this helps,
-Rick

[RazorDX]

(o.O)

So Rick is a robot? :lol:

[awfulwaffle]

most confusing help thread ever.

[rixGAphx]

most confusing help thread ever.

:D :D

[14philips]

Man, I'm really relieved to hear I may not have to drop the tank. I'll try your method this weekend and let you know. It sounds like good news to me. (also, I didn't think it sounded all that confusing)

I have another question: My fuel gauge was not registering a correct reading. In fact it would show 'Full' most of the time. I would fill the tank at 250k, which is why I decided to stop at SinGin. The fuel gauge light would go on and the "idiot'' bell would ring if i was approaching empty, but the the fuel gauge itself hasn't worked since I had the car. Would this problem be related to the Fuel Pump issue? ..Just curious

Thanks again Rick.

'99 V6, 9-yrs old, about 110k miles?

First, you must make sure you have 'bad gas.'

Even though there's a strong association, timing-wise, with your fill-up and the onset of bad engine performance, these symptoms could more easily apply to a Fuel Pump on its way out/final demise.

The association of 'bad gas' and 'New Jersey' (there's gotta be a dozen bad jokes there :roll: ) doesn't wash in this case, since the news article was about water contamination and yours clearly is NOT water; might be diesel, but that could happen as easily in AZ or Or or FL, etc.

First step would be sniffing: Diesel has a distinctive odor; if you have enough diesel in the gas to cause trouble, then sniffing the raw fuel (just 'bleed' a little onto a rag from the pressure test port, the tire-like valve on the fuel rail, below/behind the powersteering pump).

If diesel odor is present, then proceed with the drianing in my above post.
If not found, then proceed with determining if the FP is producing adequate pressure.
It has spinning vanes with rubber edge seals, and they wear over time.
First sign of worn vane seals is that it takes a few seconds of cranking (while the FP develops pressure) to start the engine each morning.
Next sign is poor performance when higher-pressure/higher-flow is needed (e.g., acceleartion onto a highway, and at highway speeds above 65 mph).
Finally, the FP doesn't even produce the 30 psi minimum for the injectors to 'squirt'.
So your symptoms, since leaving the gas station, correspond to a FP on its last legs (as well as contaminated fuel).
But IMO the FP is more likely, especially if this is the original 9-yr old FP.

Finally, even if not diesel, and even if the FP vanes are fine, you *might* have gotten gas with SO MUCH suspended debris (sand, leaves, insects, whatever) that either":
* The 'sock' inlet to the FP (inside the tank) has been completely clogged so it can't suck-in any fuel; or,
* The filter has become completely clogged (which would also fit your symptoms).

I think, in retrospect, I would:
* Check for odor; if diesel, proceed with draining.
* If no diesel odor, then:
* * Replace fuel filter (yours prolly hasn't been changed in the last 30k miles, anyways, since most aren't).
* * Check for fuel pressure (should be 45psi at the rail with engine 'off', ignition 'on').

Hope this helps,
-Rick

:)

[rixGAphx]

For the '96-'98, the Fuel Sender unit (which is an electrical rheostat against which a contact from a float arm rubs) is integral as a 'combo unit' with the fuel pump itself.
That little puppy can actually spark up a storm when the tank is low on fuel, but there is so little oxygen in a fuel tank, and the gas vapors are so rich, that fire/explosion NEVER happens.

I understand that the '99+ models have a separately-replaceable sender, though it's still on the side of the FP inside the tank, so dropping the tank is step one for replacing it.

It sounds like your float arm is rising and dropping just fine as it should, responding to the fuel level.
When it drops to the bottom, then it activates a separate signal which goes through the computer for the 'low fuel light/ding'.
But whether it makes contact with the sender rheostat windings, and sends a signal (12V on the '96, and I *think* on the '99+) to the dash gage, or whether the dash gage fails to read it, seems to be the problem.

I understand that years of crummy gas can deposit a residue fo varnish on the sides of the rheostat windings, so the float arm contact never passes electricty into the windings.
A bottle or two of name-brand off-the-shelf FI cleaner through the tank according to bottle directions is often all it takes to dissolve the varnish and allow power to flow and the gage to again respond.
If the problem is with the wire to the gage, then trouble-shooting to repair the damage is required.
If the gage itself is getting the signal now, then the only repair is a replacement Instrument Panel Cluster (IPC), since the gages aren't servicable.

Hope this helps,
-Rick