Why hasn't anyone created a 2.0L DI turbo Fiero?

[wonderbot]

Filed under: Tuners (http://www.autoblog.com/category/tunertuesdays/), Coupes (http://www.autoblog.com/category/coupes/), Pontiac (http://www.autoblog.com/category/pontiac/)
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/05/fiero-red.jpg

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/05/x08pt_4c011.jpgIt's hard to believe that it's been two decades since the Pontiac Fiero went away. The Fiero was a project that began with great promise and ultimately dissolved into the pre-Lutz era corporate politics that was General Motors in the late '80s. Early spy photos showed a hot looking little two-seat mid-engine sports car. Rumors early on had it powered by an aluminum block 2.9L turbo V6. Unfortunately, the prospect of a mid-engine Pontiac that would out run a contemporary Corvette did not sit well with the bow-tie boys. The result was the first production iterations of the Fiero being neutered to within an inch of their lives.

By the time Pontiac fixed what was wrong with the early models, its reputation was so bad that no one would touch it any more. Over time, surviving Fieros have undergone all manner of visual and mechanical transformations coming out looking like faux Lamborghinis and Ferraris. They have even been stuffed with heavily boosted small block V8s. The one missing project that we haven't seen is probably the one closest to the original vision for the car.

Take an original four-cylinder Fiero body. Add the upgraded suspension from the last '88 GTs. Then insert the 2.0L turbo direct-injected engine used in the Solstice GXP and other cars mated to a six speed gearbox. That engine is now available in front-wheel-drive form in the Chevy HHR SS, so it should be doable. A Fiero with 260 hp and 260 lb-ft peaking at 2,000 rpm, what a deal! Any takers?
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[Matt95GT]

Heh... I'm sure lots of Fiero enthusiasts could answer the "why"... Cost and complication. There's hundreds of old Quad 4's and 3800's rotting in junkyards... so why use a brand new expensive powertrain? Plus the other engine swaps have been proven possible by many people, and there's even aftermarket parts and harnesses to make the swap easier. Who the hell would want to deal with the nightmare that modern PCM's are... OBDII, BCMs, passlock.

[Nighthawk243]

Because its more worthwile to drop a high torque smallblock chevy in one than to use a 4 banger.

Also, IIRC, there are no premade kits to install the LNF engine in a Fierro, while the small block V8's are well accomodated.

[Ralph]

heck the fiero was designed to have a SBC

[p35bhp55]

I owned an '84, my thought is why bother? They were very heavy for their size and the build quality was poor at best, also the '84s and '88s were the only decent looking ones. The first 2 or 3 years had a Chevette front end.....BLEAH! I think they dumped them to make way for the Trans van, talk about a cursed assembly line!

[pcracer]

Curb weight '88 Fiero GT Manual: 2473 lbs (MSN autos)
Curb weight '08 Chevy Cobalt SS: ~2900 lbs

Cobalt SS = FF, not to mention the long/narrow/tall dimensions
Fiero = MR, wide, short, low

Cobalt SS = 5.7s 0-60, 69+ mph slalom
Fiero w/ LNF could stomp these times, especially when tuned.

Yeah, old platform that was never realized, but just consider the possibilities. This would not be a great ultra-high speed car, but would rule for autox/solo and windy road fun! I wish I had the cash and tools.

[RickHigginsHtbr]

there's a guy on ecotecforum.com who took a 2.2 n/a ecotec and put it in his fiero... hell, another guy put one in a microbus too. give it time, someone will do it, the engine's too new right now.

[p35bhp55]

Curb weight '88 Fiero GT Manual: 2473 lbs (MSN autos)
Curb weight '08 Chevy Cobalt SS: ~2900 lbs
I'm not saying it's wrong, but I'm having a real hard time with that number. The Fiero had to have a steel space frame to make it pass safety laws and even with the plastic body panels 2400 seems too low.

[Ravant]

Yeah - it's my first post here, but I'm kinda new to the Grand Am scene. (Have a buddy who did a 3800s/c swap. I did a 3400 build, but it was totalled a while ago, sadly.)

I'm working on one of these swaps now, actually. It's in no way easy, or straightforward. The 2.2 L61 turbo, 2.4 LE5 turbo, or even the 2.0 supercharged swaps are (relatively) easy and straightforward in comparison. They have more simplistic wiring harnesses, easier computers to tune, and less plumbing to deal with.

Problem 1) The LNF I4 requires a lot of plumbing to get the intercooler into a good location to pull up air, and a molded side-intake scoop to help get cool air over it, even though it's shoved in the hot engine compartment of a Fiero.

Problem 2) The LNF ECU is very complex. The engine itself has a continuously variable valve timing system that can phase each lobe of the cam up to 90* off center in either direction. Tuning this system, while beneficial, is in no way easy. (GM is, however, selling a $295 add-on computer for the Cobalt SS that allows you to monitor it, which may help with the swap.) The ECU itself also doesn't like the Fiero at all. It doesn't like being outside of its original car. The only other attempt at an LNF swap I've seen has resulted in a "Limp-home mode" activated on the ECU. I'm working with a Long Island-based company that supposedly can help me around that. GM has also expressed interest in releasing the LNF in "crate" form, much like they did with the L61 for 4-cylinder tuners for a while. If they do, then this problem goes away on its own.

Problem 3) Mounting. Engine and transmission mounts currently have to be all custom-fabbed.

Problem 4) Axles. Nothing fits properly, stock. Need to make some modifications.

Problem 5) The newer, more desireable F35 transaxle has a nice "No-lift-shift" feature. But - it doesn't seem to interface well with the older Solstice/Sky LNF most people can get their hands on.

Problem 6) The Solstice/Sky LNF is desireable for the swap, because of the packaging. With the Cobalt LNF, the exhaust manifold is bent towards the rear of the car after the turbo. This will make you lose your trunk in the Fiero. With the Solstice/Sky LNF, the exhaust manifold is bent towards the driver's side after the turbo, allowing you to custom-fab an exhaust that will let you keep a cat and a muffler in the loop. But! See problem 5. This problem is not fully researched yet, as I'm going with a custom exhaust manifold to get things positioned where I want, not where I'm limited to. I may lose power/spool time like this, but I'd rather keep the car as "stock" as possible. The reason I like the Fiero is that it has more storage space than a Solstice, by a vast amount.

Problem 7) Electronic throttle. To get the LNF's electronic throttle system, you have to take the entire 3-pedal cluster from the donor car, including the clutch. (I'll explain in problem 8.) This makes for some pretty hairy custom-fabrication under the dash, and in the front "storage" area.

Problem 8) The Cobalt SS/F35 transaxle interface with the ECU to offer a "competition launch control" mode. This senses your brake, clutch, and gas pedal positions to help allow the ECU to precisely control your launch so you get the "quickest" launch off the line. This requires hours of calibration.

Problem 9) The "auxillary" or body-control-unit is needed for some of the nicer interface features with the system. This requires a full re-vamp of the car's interior.

Problem 10) The F35 is a front-mounted, front-wheel-drive transaxle. Putting it in the back reverses your shift-pattern. (Rotate your stock shifter 180 degrees to get an idea of what I'm talking about.) It's going to take some pretty interesting engineering to get that fixed as well.

As you can see, it's not easy. It's not cheap. And it's certainly not ideal, when the 3800 S/c can be swapped in for much cheaper and with much less custom-fabrication work involved. I've got myself a $25,000 budget on this Fiero build, and am doing it to prove it can be done. It's in no way the most cost-effective, or even the most ideal swap to do, when the all-aluminum LS1 is only marginally heavier, providing much more power, and the 3800-s/c engine is also only marginally heavier, and can provide 12's or better in the 1/4 with ample handling capacity as well, provided you re-work the suspension a bit.

As for the 2473 pound '88 Fiero GT with the stick, if you believe that number, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you. The '84 2m4 weighed 2473. The V6 is about 100 pounds heavier than the Iron Duke in the '84, and the '88 got a much-improved suspension system that significantly improved handling, but also increased the weight by about 80 pounds or so. The '88 GT weighed 2790. The '88 2m4 weighed 2590.

An '85 2m4 with the LNF installed weighs an estimated 2410. (The LNF weighs exactly 180.1 pounds less than the iron duke, as weighed by the scales here, weighing in at 305 lbs.) Change the 3-speed auto with the lighter F35 5-speed manual, and you drop almost 50 pounds off of that figure, which is good, because the turbo, plumbing, and huge intercooler weigh roughly 50 pounds combined.

[RickHigginsHtbr]

wow.

Have you been on ecotecforum.com? I'm 99% sure a guy did a 5speed/l61 swap into a fiero, maybe he can help with the shifting?

[Shad0wguy]

I think the biggest factor into why we haven't seen one of these motors in a Fiero yet is that there simply aren't enough around. Sure you could buy the crate version, but cost is a factor there and there are very few cars in salvage yards with those motors yet. Give it a few years and I'm sure someone will come along and try the swap.

[Nighthawk243]

I think the biggest factor into why we haven't seen one of these motors in a Fiero yet is that there simply aren't enough around. Sure you could buy the crate version, but cost is a factor there and there are very few cars in salvage yards with those motors yet. Give it a few years and I'm sure someone will come along and try the swap.

That is true. Either they've ended up rotting, or they were torn apart for use as a "Ferrari" kit car.